Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

So you are standing up for evolution as the truth, Luke is wrong and you are right?

Im standing up for the Bible's truth...this is why Im quoting the Bible verse after verse...

and this also is why no one dares go after me with their Bibles!

The YEC people know full well that i got the Bible on my side, thats why they never try to use the Bible to disagree with me.

No, what they do is try to slander me, or slander some teacher of evolution or to lump me with all kinds of bad things in the past...they will do anything rather than looking at the verses I quote to see if what im saying is found there?

This is why I have asked over and over to put my words to the test of Scripture!

Dont just say, "Evolution is evil" and think that's good enough!

Put my words to the same test they put the words of Paul to..for it says the church listened to what Paul was saying, then searched the scriptures to see if what Paul said actually appears in the text?


So its not your opinion of Evolution that matters, I dont really care what that is.
The only thing that matters is if you are able to listen to what Im teaching, then go open your bible to see if it says what i claim it says!



If the Bible says what I claim it says, then who is your argument with?...me?....or the guy who wrote the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Genealogy - noun
a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.
So do you believe the genealogy in Luke chapter 3 is incorrect? I don't see any name between Adam and God.

again,,,where have I said there should be a name to read?

Why do you ***ume that every question we can ask must have an answer in the Bible?


The Bible does not make that claim of itself.

[alanmolstad]

genealogy .......now as for this topic:


During my 8-week YEC cl*** i attended taught to me by Ken Ham personally, Ken talked about how all the modern YEC books and websites all base their ideas on the work of Henry Morris.

And Ham also told me that Henry Morris taught that there are "gaps" in the listed genealogy that we find in the Bible.


But you can find out this stuff for yourself, just GOOGLE search for "Gap Genealogy in Bible" and you will see site after site of proof that when we read the lists of names in the Bible that we should NOT believe for a moment that this is the perfect listing...

http://www.reasons.org/articles/are-...al-genealogies
The structure of the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 also favors the belief that they do not register all the names in these respective lines of descent.


""The general fact that the genealogies of Scripture were not constructed for a chronological purpose and lend themselves ill to employment as a basis for chronological calculations"

and here also is what I think it all comes down to -

"In a word, the Scriptural data leave us wholly without guidance in estimating the time which elapsed between the creation of the world and the deluge and between the deluge and the call of Abraham. So far as the Scripture ***ertions are concerned, we may suppose any length of time to have intervened between these events

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

genealogy .......now as for this topic:


During my 8-week YEC cl*** i attended taught to me by Ken Ham personally, Ken talked about how all the modern YEC books and websites all base their ideas on the work of Henry Morris.

And Ham also told me that Henry Morris taught that there are "gaps" in the listed genealogy that we find in the Bible.


But you can find out this stuff for yourself, just GOOGLE search for "Gap Genealogy in Bible" and you will see site after site of proof that when we read the lists of names in the Bible that we should NOT believe for a moment that this is the perfect listing...

http://www.reasons.org/articles/are-...al-genealogies
The structure of the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 also favors the belief that they do not register all the names in these respective lines of descent.


""The general fact that the genealogies of Scripture were not constructed for a chronological purpose and lend themselves ill to employment as a basis for chronological calculations"

and here also is what I think it all comes down to -

"In a word, the Scriptural data leave us wholly without guidance in estimating the time which elapsed between the creation of the world and the deluge and between the deluge and the call of Abraham. So far as the Scripture ***ertions are concerned, we may suppose any length of time to have intervened between these events

Ok I'll try to make it simple, once again. Was there any man, ape, missing link, etc. between Adam and God?

[alanmolstad]

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
That is scripture, that's not sufficient for you? You would rather put the word of God side by side with Darwin's theory and say they are compatible?
All of creation is made of similar elements, God created all those elements, how you think that makes evolution compatible with Creation is
amazing.

[alanmolstad]

And the Lord God = the who of the story



formed = the word is talking about a work,,,an effort...to take what is already made and make a different thing



man = the thing that is made out of the things that were already made




of the dust of the ground = the very same source for life that we find in Evolution, so there is no disagreement here at all !




, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life = we share the same Nature of all other flesh that also has this same breath of life in them, for the Bible says that all the animals have this same breath of life.



; and man became a living being." = man is a creature with flesh that is the same as the other creatures




Nothing in the verse as written stands as an anti-evolution argument. Its written about 'god' and so it does read differently that a modern work of science, but what we find is that as both science and genesis look at the very same historical events in earth's history, that there is a common point where they meet....
and thus both Genesis and evolution can walk hand in hand.


So its not me that is doing this, but rather the text of the bible is showing us that it can walk "side by side" with science...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

You quoted my post that we see above.
But you never really asked about anything that I wrote?

I took most of an hour to write that comment before I posted it onto the forum.
I did research to make sure I was right on the money with each claim.

I tried my best to make it easy to read, easy to grasp,,,and for the most part even spelled correctly...

So I put a lot of work into that post for you to read....

Thus I will ask, "Is there any part of that post that you would question?...do you see some part that you would like to see me support with the Bible?




Now Im not asking you to read it again and take notes...LOL

Im just saying that as you do read it, and when you come to something that you think I cant support with the Bible, then why not ask me to give you the verse that teaches what I claim the Bible says?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

; and man became a living being." = man is a creature with flesh that is the same as the other creatures




Nothing in the verse as written stands as an anti-evolution argument. Its written about 'god' and so it does read differently that a modern work of science, but what we find is that as both science and genesis look at the very same historical events in earth's history, that there is a common point where they meet....
and thus both Genesis and evolution can walk hand in hand.


So its not me that is doing this, but rather the text of the bible is showing us that it can walk "side by side" with science...

Not true Alan, 1 Cor 15:39 " All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Not true Alan, 1 Cor 15:39 " All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds."

Yes it is true...
While we dont have feathers, nor fins...yet we share the same breath of life,,the same source, we all all made of the same stuff...no difference in the creation of our flesh

When God made man he used the same starting material that he used to make the great apes....and cows...and bugs...

[alanmolstad]

Now why is this important for us to understand about the common nature of life?

The reason is that one of the biggest errors that some people cant stop from believing is that "Man's body is different"

This comes about because when some people read, that man was made in the 'image" of God, they take this to mean that its talking about our bodies of flesh..

Once they make this understanding jump, then when they are confronted with the teachings of evolution they reject them out of hand because according to evolution we all are made of the same stuff, whereas how they understand the Bible man is different because our bodies are made in the image of God...

and thus any of my attempts to show them what the bible actually says will fail.


So I have learned that one of the first places to start undermining a person's false ideas about the Bible is get them to see how man can be made truly in the 'image of God' yet this is not at all talking about our bodies of flesh.


I show people that think our bodies are made in God's image that this is a false teaching of Mormonism.....not of the christian faith.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

as I asked...is there any part of this that you would like to see where I get that in the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.




This is the first section of my post.

Go over it, search for any errors...
If there is anything you want me to back up and prove with the Scripture, just ask...

What do you think I cant support with the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?

ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.




want to have me support this answer?

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?

ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?

ANSWER - The Earth.

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?

ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?

ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?

ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?

ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?

ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?

ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.




This is the first section of my post.

Go over it, search for any errors...
If there is anything you want me to back up and prove with the Scripture, just ask...

What do you think I cant support with the Bible?

Alan, there are no errors in the Scriptures. It is your interpretation, opinions and belief in other sources (Darwin, etc.) that cause error.
Yes the Bible says God created man from the dust of the earth and God did create man's body to be compatible with all the elements and other life on the earth.
We couldn't eat plants or any other food on earth if it was not compatible with our physiology, but the Bible in no way suggests that we evolved from other creatures nor does it suggest any of the other un-provable claims of evolution.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

Where did the earth come from?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

....... but the Bible in no way suggests that we evolved from other creatures nor does it suggest any of the other un-provable claims of evolution.

Did I ever say the Bible "taught" evolution?