Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

That's the thing though, All you are doing is pushing Your Opinion. Nothing More.

my opinions...and the bible verse that supports them!

I list a verse to support all I teach.
Every last thing i say, I have a verse that clearly teaches.
I can point to the verse...I can list the verse...


So when I say that the first thing the bible says God created in the beginning was "the heavens", is this just my "opinion" ? or can I point to a verse that clearly says this in black and white?...

I think I can point to a verse.


When the YEC teacher says that god created the light of the stars "in transit" is this just his "opinion"?or is there a verse that clearly teaches this?......I think its just his opinion.

[alanmolstad]

I think everyone knows by now that if I list something the Bible teaches,and I dont tag to it a verse, its only because I hope to be challenged to supply it!

Im ready to pounce!


example....
I have noticed over the years that for some reason people take the wrong mental Point of view when they read Genesis.
I believe far too many Bible students have the mental image of a astronaut when they read the events happening in genesis.
They take the mental Point of view of a man in high orbit around the earth.

But the Bible's point of view (POV) is an earthly point of view.
__________________________________________________ __________________

Now I have not given a verse that supports this idea yet,,,,but the reason I have not done that yet is that I hope some guy reads it and thinks that what im talking about does not come from the book of genesis, and so asks me to support my statements with a verse!




and thats when I hit him with Genesis 1 verse 2

[alanmolstad]

When a person reads the story of Genesis, we are not to have the modern mental image in our mind, ..we are not to pretend we are an astronaut on the space station looking down at the earth.
Rather the Bible tells us the mental image we art to take...the point of view we are to ***ume as we read Genesis.

That POV is talked about at genesis 1:2.
The Spirit of God, that is hovering just over the surface of the waters.

This is the view point from where the whole story is told from.

Not from a space man looking down from high orbit, but rather from a position just hovering over the darkened waters of an endless sea.


Now, with this mental POV in our minds to guide us, we see things in a better way as the story unfolds.

When the Bible says "let there be light; we are to now understand that from our POV of hovering over the water, we now can see this "light"..we know when our side of the earth spins away from the sun's light as we see it get dark from where we are hovering....

[alanmolstad]

so in other words....the Bible point of view that the reader of the Genesis story is to have is an earthly one.

We are not to have the POV of someone in deep space looking down.
The Bible's POV is that of the Spirit of God who is said to be hovering over the waters.

So we are-not looking down, rather we are in the middle...the sky above, the sea below, the land appearing..The darkness all around us,,,then the light appears.

and as our position on the earth turns to and away from the sun we see the difference in the light that we see...

at first all we can tell is when its day and night ,but later (say by day 4)we can now see that even at night there appears a lesser light...
Then as the clouds talked about in *** 38 have totally cleared we can finally make out even the dim lights of the stars...

[alanmolstad]

as there are no more questions for me to deal with, I would like to now return to setting down short answers to common questions that come up.

[alanmolstad]

Many YEC believers dont like Evolution because they say its all up to "chance"in evolution. What are the facts regarding chance?

First I would say that there is really no such thing as "chance" found in evolution.
Things always follow the rules of probability.

Be that as it may, there are many things in science that remain "unknown"as of right now.
But this should not cause the Christian too much concern, for we have in our Bible a story that helps us understand how "chance" fits into our lives....and how its to be understood.

[jude1:3]

Walls of text with no substance. Just nonsense spamming .

[alanmolstad]

That's the best you got eh?

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That's the best you got eh?

What, , this is some kind of a game to you? Some sort of a contest to win you have inwardly concocted?

While you’re busy with filler, you apparently overlooked that this thread has received a lot of sacred duress (serious commentary).

Okay then SPORT – where is my answer?

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????

Come’n, don’t give me that blank stare, , OUT WITH IT!

I’ve already provided mine, remember?

Link

So with all this stubborn resistance to either hear or comment on mine, surely there is something to overwhelm that post out of Genesis.

But in a different direction, I don’t wish to follow you there, but to follow Christ in everything He gave us to use. But this is not gametime, the thread is ripe of warning against this evil doctrine which you distance yourself from, saying they are “opinions”. Look, that outlook is only hurting you my friend. The applications are alive and straight from the the text to oppose this.

But you haven't thought the warning necessary. I believe God sought your heart on this, whether it would harden or listen. The prospects you left against these warnings don't look favorable for you, but disastrous as though it was witchcraft. just as the word describes it "witchcraft".

When the notice went up to “repent”, it was only to spare you of what lies ahead. But it is useless if you refuse us to the end. All the promotional tricks in the world won’t be able to recapture it once the last breath is drawn and we stand to give Him an account of our acts. Then you do get your wish, but unfortunately by then it’s – game over.

Therefore, based on this,

“If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them” (***us 3:10)

I would like to confer with the poster Disciple here and the good contributor Jude 1:3 and suggest the beginnings of retiring this thread, as the first and second warnings are long past and as for myself, don’t wish to send a wrong message with the above in mind.

If we feel new threads related to this need to resumed, then I trust that is what the Lord has laid on your heart to encounter.

“For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God” (Romans 8:14)

First and second? For our part, I think the gesture is quite adequate. Mercy and recognition needs to meet somewhere.

Mike.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????

where did I say one verse superseded another?....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where did I say one verse superseded another?....

While we all understand that all scripture is inspired , we also do understand that not all Scripture is equally relevant on every topic you can name.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

What, , this is some kind of a game to you? Some sort of a contest to win you have inwardly concocted?

While you’re busy with filler, you apparently overlooked that this thread has received a lot of sacred duress (serious commentary).

Okay then SPORT – where is my answer?

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????

Come’n, don’t give me that blank stare, , OUT WITH IT!

I’ve already provided mine, remember?

Link

So with all this stubborn resistance to either hear or comment on mine, surely there is something to overwhelm that post out of Genesis.

But in a different direction, I don’t wish to follow you there, but to follow Christ in everything He gave us to use. But this is not gametime, the thread is ripe of warning against this evil doctrine which you distance yourself from, saying they are “opinions”. Look, that outlook is only hurting you my friend. The applications are alive and straight from the the text to oppose this.

But you haven't thought the warning necessary. I believe God sought your heart on this, whether it would harden or listen. The prospects you left against these warnings don't look favorable for you, but disastrous as though it was witchcraft. just as the word describes it "witchcraft".

When the notice went up to “repent”, it was only to spare you of what lies ahead. But it is useless if you refuse us to the end. All the promotional tricks in the world won’t be able to recapture it once the last breath is drawn and we stand to give Him an account of our acts. Then you do get your wish, but unfortunately by then it’s – game over.

Therefore, based on this,



I would like to confer with the poster Disciple here and the good contributor Jude 1:3 and suggest the beginnings of retiring this thread, as the first and second warnings are long past and as for myself, don’t wish to send a wrong message with the above in mind.

If we feel new threads related to this need to resumed, then I trust that is what the Lord has laid on your heart to encounter.


First and second? For our part, I think the gesture is quite adequate. Mercy and recognition needs to meet somewhere.

Mike.

I dont understand much of your posts , Im beginning to think that English is like your 2nd language or something?


anyway, I have posted a bunch of things on the topic of Genesis and Evolution,,,I have always provided a Bible verse to support all things...
But if you have read anything I have posted and want me to take a 2nd look at it?
Or if you have a question about a verse and how it is understood, just let me know and I will be happy to address such issues.

[MichaellS]

Appreciate your response, really, thanks.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where did I say one verse superseded another?....

You didn’t, it was I who introduced that. And no, I’m not suggesting the removal of any text.

If you applied what I said in #128, you would know the context of “supersede” as I used it.

That use of mine suggested in the epistles is actually rising up against your suggestions of evolution in Genesis. But not mine alone as I’m sure you know. It is our hope that you have contemplated those points as much as we have yours.

The whole spirit of “supersede” as I used it reaches in and covers the very reception of the word of God from cover-to-cover, but not just reception, but to guard what inspiration from the text comes forth. If we are trying to be deep and sensitive to the text, then that inspiration won’t ever be in conflict with my notation,

“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

And should always be found applying it where the word of God says to apply it,

“All scripture” (II Timothy 3:16)

Then we know every time we pick up and open His word, we won’t have reason to allow our thoughts to supersede,

1. All scriptures
2. Knowledge of God
3. Obedience of Christ

[alanmolstad]

Its like random words.....strung in a line....
Thats what It seems like to read your posts.

I did catch you referred to post number #128....but that was your post ( and that post again I simply dont understand) not mine, so Im still not sure where I said that a verse that is talking about Genesis in the New Testament is related to our topic here?...

as far as I can guess, any verses in the New Testament talking about Genesis would be dealing with the whole "He made them male and female" issue, and I dont have any problems with that verse.....
And as far asI can remember, that is about the only time Jesus or the Saints addressed the Genesis Creation story....so .



[U]Now the idea itself that one verse in the Bible is more important than another is a valid concept.
I have said before that while all the Bible is inspired, its not all equally relevant in every situation.
[/U]
That actually came up once in Bible School I attended, where a student answered a question by saying that - "The Bible will answer all our questions"
I disagreed with that, and said that my view is that the Bible only "Answers the questions it felt important to answer, not every question we can ask of it"


Now in the study of Genesis there are many Bible verses that are very relevant, there are also many verses that are not relevant.

My aim is to try to stay on track, to address Bible text that are relevant to understanding what the Bible is teaching about how God created this earth.

I dont quote much in the way of non-Bible sources, so dont blame me if you dont like to deal with this Bible issue.

The study of Genesis in connection to science is a very valid study, and its going on in the church all the time.
It's also a question that is of great concern for younger students....

Im also student of the Bible and I can tell you first-hand , that this topic is one of the things that occupy shelf after shelf in any christian book store.
I doubt you can walk into any Christian book store in this country and not find a "Creation/evolution section"

Now, if you dont think Christians should even study evolution?...thats your deal.

Im not here to show you how much importance to put on the different issues that Christians need to be ready to have an answer for.

Im just reminded personally, that I need to be ready "always" to give to anyone that asks, the reason for my faith.
And my faith is in the bible...and i share what I have learned.


And I also believe that what we do when we study Genesis is to build on the work Gd gave Adam to do.
most people only remember that Adam tended the garden...and while thats true, God actually did give Adam a higher work to do.
For God created the animals and brought them to Adam to see what Adam would name them.

This makes Adam the first scientist!
For Adam was involved in the study of the world.

To this day , and in many, many ways, the study of this world started by Adam continues.

So the study of the universe, the study of God's word in Genesis, the study of how they are connected, is a work given man by God himself.

Nothing of what I teach about the Genesis /evolution connections is taken from non-Bible sources, and as I didnt write the bible, I am only pointing out what God felt was important enough for us to have written down for us to study.

God felt this stuff was important...

Not me,,,,God did.....or rather - God does!

So Im not the one to blame if you don't like what I point out the Bible teaches.

For like I said, the bible does not answer every question we can ask, but it does answer the questions God felt were important enough to be answered.

Im just quoting God's answer.

[alanmolstad]

Do I believe that the Lord's quoting the story of the creation of Adam and Eve are relevant in our discussion of Evolution?


No.

Not much anyway...


I believe that the times when we read out Lord quote Genesis, he is talking mostly about marriage.
So we cant just twist his words into thinking that Jesus was taking also a position, for or against evolution.

I do believe you can use the Lord's use of the creation of Adam and Eve to support some other arguments...like for example the fact that it was a male and female that are married.
or that Adam only was given ONE wife.


But that's about it for what i think is the correct use of the words of Christ that were in his context clearly aimed at the question of divorce.

I would be totally wrong to try to use the words of Christ on divorce as a way to attack things like Macro-evolution, or the age of the earth, etc,

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Its like random words.....strung in a line....
Thats what It seems like to read your posts.

I did catch you referred to post number #128....but that was your post ( and that post again I simply dont understand) not mine, so Im still not sure where I said that a verse that is talking about Genesis in the New Testament is related to our topic here?...

as far as I can guess, any verses in the New Testament talking about Genesis would be dealing with the whole "He made them male and female" issue, and I dont have any problems with that verse.....
And as far asI can remember, that is about the only time Jesus or the Saints addressed the Genesis Creation story....so .



[U]Now the idea itself that one verse in the Bible is more important than another is a valid concept.
I have said before that while all the Bible is inspired, its not all equally relevant in every situation.
[/U]
That actually came up once in Bible School I attended, where a student answered a question by saying that - "The Bible will answer all our questions"
I disagreed with that, and said that my view is that the Bible only "Answers the questions it felt important to answer, not every question we can ask of it"


Now in the study of Genesis there are many Bible verses that are very relevant, there are also many verses that are not relevant.

My aim is to try to stay on track, to address Bible text that are relevant to understanding what the Bible is teaching about how God created this earth.

I dont quote much in the way of non-Bible sources, so dont blame me if you dont like to deal with this Bible issue.

The study of Genesis in connection to science is a very valid study, and its going on in the church all the time.
It's also a question that is of great concern for younger students....

Im also student of the Bible and I can tell you first-hand , that this topic is one of the things that occupy shelf after shelf in any christian book store.
I doubt you can walk into any Christian book store in this country and not find a "Creation/evolution section"

Now, if you dont think Christians should even study evolution?...thats your deal.

Im not here to show you how much importance to put on the different issues that Christians need to be ready to have an answer for.

Im just reminded personally, that I need to be ready "always" to give to anyone that asks, the reason for my faith.
And my faith is in the bible...and i share what I have learned.


And I also believe that what we do when we study Genesis is to build on the work Gd gave Adam to do.
most people only remember that Adam tended the garden...and while thats true, God actually did give Adam a higher work to do.
For God created the animals and brought them to Adam to see what Adam would name them.

This makes Adam the first scientist!
For Adam was involved in the study of the world.

To this day , and in many, many ways, the study of this world started by Adam continues.

So the study of the universe, the study of God's word in Genesis, the study of how they are connected, is a work given man by God himself.

Nothing of what I teach about the Genesis /evolution connections is taken from non-Bible sources, and as I didnt write the bible, I am only pointing out what God felt was important enough for us to have written down for us to study.

God felt this stuff was important...

Not me,,,,God did.....or rather - God does!

So Im not the one to blame if you don't like what I point out the Bible teaches.

For like I said, the bible does not answer every question we can ask, but it does answer the questions God felt were important enough to be answered.

Im just quoting God's answer.

Typical Evolution cult prop and protection, brought to you the reader by this customary evasion. Notice the subtle cover from my last points made.

Thread contributors > A, D, J, M

Thread mercy > D, J, M

Everything else, a demonic leap of doom. Superficial Christianity is no Christianity at all. Seen here by averting the points all. Reader beware.

Supporters, if there are any, don’t dare walk in the light of exposure as the Son won’t be mocked by avoiding His will. Those who choose to try have a price to pay. The cost? Denying that will > a devilish an***hesis.

Mike, is less than impressed.

Out.

[alanmolstad]

Well I'm glad to see I covered all that you were asking about.
I did try to address any of the concerns that I think you were pointing to.
let me know if you still had a question about something I have writen or about our topic of how to view the Genesis/evolution subject.

[alanmolstad]

If anyone else has another point that I have made that they would like me to to have a 2nd look at?
Or anything connected with our topic here on how a Christians should look at the story of Genesis?...just let me know .

Otherwise, tonight I will return to writing about the common questions that come up when you are involved in the story of God's Word and the teachings of Evolution.

[alanmolstad]

So the "creation Days" are to be understood to be talking about a very long time?


yes.
There is no ending to the 7th day at all in the Scriptures.

[alanmolstad]

Did God create the earth before the sun and moon?

No....

Here is a video that helps you see what the bible is teaching us.

http://www.reasons.org/videos/did-go...e-sun-and-moon

[alanmolstad]

So you said that the Young Earth teachings go wrong at Genesis 1:1, but what do you mean by this?


I means that the YEC teachings simply don't believe what the Bible says at Gen 1:1.
They don't believe it, because they have added to the text on the 4th day, and so if they were to also believe in Genesis 1:1 as written it would make them look silly for thinking they needed to add to the 4th day at all.

The 4th day is not about the creation of the sun and moon, rather it is about the fact that the earth now received stronger light from the sun by day 4.

You can see this fact easy enough if you just read the Text as it appears, and don't mentally replace the words "Greater light"with the word "sun"
If you can do that, if you can just read the text as its written,then you will start to see how truly silly the YEC teachings are, and how nothing is needed to be added to the story.

The story reads just fine the way it is,without any need of us to think we will fix things by adding or replacing words to it.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.reasons.org/videos/did-go...e-sun-and-moon


I got to go see Ross speak one time.
I found his views on the age of the Earth to be refreshing.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.



Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.



Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,

“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,

“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,



Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”

They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?

All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?

All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.

Should all Christian counterfeits weep over feeding the beast of evolution? Look up the thread, , get up, , and get over it!

The night is selfishly spent, , it’s time, for God calls us to repentance, not selfishness.

“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21)

“For,
“, , THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.” (I Pet 1:24, 25)

Note* - Beware of glaring flag to cherry pick this post. Because if I am wrong about that status of a counterfeit, then the Holy Spirit will bring glory to the thread and correct me and every other Christian I am also committed to in this thread. He can show us a counterfeit.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.



Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.



Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,

“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,

“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,



Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”

They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?

All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?

All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.

Should all Christian counterfeits weep over feeding the beast of evolution? Look up the thread, , get up, , and get over it!

The night is selfishly spent, , it’s time, for God calls us to repentance, not selfishness.

“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21)

“For,
“, , THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.” (I Pet 1:24, 25)

Note* - Beware of glaring flag to cherry pick this post. Because if I am wrong about that status of a counterfeit, then the Holy Spirit will bring glory to the thread and correct me and every other Christian I am also committed to in this thread. He can show us a counterfeit.

[alanmolstad]

any time you have a question about any verse I quoted...just let me know..