Why to NOT take Genesis literally.

[alanmolstad]

Once again I want to hear any questions you might have on this.

So if I have said anything that you don't think is supported by a verse of the bible?, then challenge me to name the verse that teaches in agreement with what im saying!

I want you to see what im saying is the only Truth there is.

Therefore I want you to put every word im saying to the test of scripture...



I think the text of the Bible is what I should center my words to you on.

Just like with the question I asked you (that for some reason you have yet to answer with a verse with?)

[alanmolstad]

I await any questions you or anyone else might have on what i have said so far....


an example question that you might wish to ask me would be like -

"Alan, you have said that God made the source for all the light , including the stars, on the first day as the very first thing listed He created, but the Bible says God did not make the stars until the 4th day, so how is this not a contradiction?"



any such question you may ask I will always try to answer with a verse out of the Bible..
So please dont be shy, ask me anything you want to question...

[jude1:3]

I like you Alan, but Macroevolution is Garbage. It really is.

[alanmolstad]

Still have no questions on anything I have said?

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Still have no questions on anything I have said?

I just disagree with you in general.

I'm not an expert or even a laymen in this topic so I'm not really qualified or prepared to give great re****als.

[alanmolstad]

I seek only to have you ask me anything about what I'm saying...any parts you may doubt and want to know how can what I say be totally true?


Ask me just whatever you think is different than what others say

[alanmolstad]

I believe that because the YEC teachings have spread like a cancer within the Body, that it has the effect of driving out some of our best and brightest bro and sisters from the church.

All; because they cant turn a blind eye to the fact that 2things are true.
#1, evolution has more than been supported by science....
#2, that when you look at the genesis story you don't actually find any Anti-Evolution arguments.



I believe that if I can get you to take a good close look at what the text of the Bible really says in black and white,that you will come to see that there is no argument with evolution here in the text at all.

In fact,if you stick close to the text what you find is a story that walks right with evolution....they walk hand in hand...

[alanmolstad]

I like to start out by pointing to the opening verses of the Genesis story.

it says, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"




QUESTION:....what does it say was created first "In the beginning"?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like to start out by pointing to the opening verses of the Genesis story.

it says, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"




QUESTION:....what does it say was created first "In the beginning"?

The answer is:
The answer as we all know is that the Bible teaches that the very first things God created were the "heavens" and the earth.

Now this word "Heavens"can have many different meanings in context, but the important meaning here in genesis is that we can say its talking about all the stars and worlds and black holes and gas giants out in space.


So in other words, the term "Heavens"is the one single correct term to describe All that stuff!!

Thus right here at the start of the Genesis story we have God creating the SOURCE for all the light talked about later.

Both the light listed on day 1 and the light listed on day 4 have a source now.



This is why the YEC teachings are in error so badly.
The YEC teachers dont understand that there in no need to invent some type of an unknown source-less light.
The light of Genesis has a listed source thats the very same source that we see in the sky today!

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well....tell me something....

When have I said I believe the Genesis story is not to be taken literally?

in fact,I believe Im the ONLY person who actually does believe the text as written.

I believe Im the ONLY person that does not need to add words to the Text to make it agree with my ideas.

Let me show you why I think this-

Tell me the verse that shows us that the 7th Day of the creation week has ended?
What verse teaches the 7th day has ended....(remember I want to believe only what the Bible "literally" says, not what people pretend it says)

Hi Alan,

What about the following verses, do you take them literally?

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:5

So the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:8
So the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:13
So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:19
So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:23
So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:34

Whenever "day" is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. Any uncertainty is resolved in the Ten Commandments as God commands us to work six days and rest one day just as He worked on the six creation days and rested on day seven (Exodus 20:11).

[alanmolstad]

finally.....someone wakes up and responds....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Whenever "day" is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. .......

Zechariah 14;7 " But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to p***, that at evening time it shall be light."

Here we see that the use of a number connected to the word "day" can have an unknown and unlimited about of time ***ociated with it.
Thus there is no such 'rule" that a number connected to the word "day"always must meing only one thing in the hebrew....

many times we have a phrase that is translated to us as "for the days to come" giving it a rather unknown amount of time it is speaking of, yet the phrase in the Hebrew is actually "for the last day".
There is it translated to us from the Hebrew 'day' singular into the word "days" meaning plural due to the context of the verse that is talking about an unknown and unlimited about of time.

Now Im not surprised to hear this argument raised.
The reason I have run into this argument over the years is that a lot of older books (that are a bit out of date) that are used by many websites that dont know the truth, and that is why from time to time I hear once again this idea that a number or a time ranking ***ociated with the word "day" must mean only a 24 hr amount of time...

But this error is mostly corrected in more modern printings of many YEC books, so it does not come up that much when I run into people that have a fresh, more up to date copy of a YEC textbook.



So let me be very clear-
There is no such rule that must force us to only think of a 24hr amount of time just because the word "day" has a number ***ociated with it.


as we see in the Zech verse, the wording we read as "one day" is talking about the unlimited amount of time as also described later in Revelation 22;5.
Yet this Hebrew phrase "one day" (talking about an unlimited amount of time) actually is translated from the very same wording found at Genesis 1:5 that is translated as "first day"and yet both phrases come from the very same ...the EXACT same Hebrew phrase "yom echad"......(literally "day one")




So in other words?....In the Hebrew as we have seen we can have a number ***ociated with the word "day"and yet it can have a very unlimited and unknown amount of time it is talking about!!!!!!!
'....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

So the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:8
So the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:13
So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:19
So the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:23
So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Gen 1:34

.

lets not overlook Genesis 1;5 " ...And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."




so...based on the many fine verses that you and I have here now posted...would you have clear proof that the first day of the creation story has ended?

How about the 2nd day of the creation story?...could we find proof in the text that that day has ended?

and the 3rd day?

The 4th?

the 5th?

the 6th too?



Are there very clear and hard to miss endings given us by the writer of the genesis story?

Are the endings he gives us impossible to miss?

Do you have to guess the first 6 days have ended yet, or can you point to a verse that clearly shows that each day has ended already?

[alanmolstad]

and my point?



My point is this:
The writer of the Genesis story goes to great length to make sure the reader understands that of the 7 days talked about in this story, 6 of the days have very clearly defined endings.
And that points us to the missing ending of the 7th day.

There is no way around this fact.
And, if we check, there is no ending to the 7th day anywhere in the rest of the creation story.....
Nor is there an ending to the 7th day found at any place in the Old Testament...
Nor in the whole rest of the bible is there even a hint that we are to add an ending to the 7th day.


so I dont.

I dont add an ending to the 7th day of creation because there is none found in the text and Im not authorized to start adding words to the Text.

Now what happens if you just take the Genesis story as written, and do not start adding things to it?.....You get a 7th day that has no ending......no ending yet!



So if the 7th 'day"of the Creation week has not ended "yet"....how long has it been going on so far?

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So if the 7th 'day"of the Creation week has not ended "yet"....how long has it been going on so far?

picard-facepalm.jpg




Alan it's easier just to believe God created everything in that week and just leave it at that.

If you do that then you don't have to jump through so many hoops.

[alanmolstad]

again...Im not doing anything but reading the text as its written....

Thats the part that can really tick-off a teacher of the YEC ideas....the fact that they have to add all sorts of things to make it agree with YEC teachings...
and yet at the same time all I do is read a verse and say "Amen!"

[alanmolstad]

and whats actually harder....

The YEC teachers and the way that they are always having to dream up a unknown type of Light that has no source?...

or me just pointing to the sun?

[alanmolstad]

as Bible students, the one thing we should always seek above all else is 'truth"

we are not opening the Bible because its a easy book to read.

we are not always organizing a church bible study because everyone always understands the text.






Now I know what im saying might sound kinda new you some of you,and that fine.

But what you should do is the same thing that the church did when Paul came with a new teaching...and that is that they listened to him, and then opened up their scriptures and looks to see if what Paul was saying was actually true?




thats what I hope to inspire you to do too!

Open up your Bible and check what im saying against the text...

[jude1:3]

Be careful, everyone who loves and practices a Lie will be outside the city with murderers, sexually immoral and idolaters :

*Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, *and Whoever Loves and Practices a Lie.*



Macroevolution is a Lie.

[alanmolstad]

That is why I stick close to the Text as written.

It's the YEC teachings that are the lie.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as Bible students, the one thing we should always seek above all else is 'truth"

we are not opening the Bible because its a easy book to read.

we are not always organizing a church bible study because everyone always understands the text.

Now I know what im saying might sound kinda new you some of you,and that fine.

But what you should do is the same thing that the church did when Paul came with a new teaching...and that is that they listened to him, and then opened up their scriptures and looks to see if what Paul was saying was actually true?

thats what I hope to inspire you to do too!

Open up your Bible and check what im saying against the text...

But there is a problem with that. As you know, I do not agree with the hypothesis of “evolution” for a number of reasons we have discussed in the past. Here, the problem with going ahead and jumping into the word is that what if the undertaking someone is invited to attend and invest study time in, is in fact so powerful, so insidious of a fast-track seducer offering its version of “truth” in turn actually upsets faith, working more harm to some than if they were not to consider it at all. Then I would like to ask you two questions.

I would be curious to know even before any conclusions were reached on this or anything we come across, what method of safeguarding should we use to abide by the word’s warnings of what to watch out for when studying:

1. Shift of meanings
2. Off-limit concepts

The word warns us of these for a reason. I am confident you know where I am going. I am confident you know there is more to it than just read. I’m just a bible student that only knows scriptures that run counter to this issue, but what if I didn’t? What do I keep in mind to support these two before I set out on any issue? I already touched on it here in part.

Again, this I am curious before any issue is raised, what are the things we should use? Possibly, you have spoken about this elsewhere.?.?

Mike.
.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]But there is a problem with that. As you know, I do not agree with the hypothesis of “evolution” for a number of reasons .....

I once was in this huge debate on the question of how to look at Genesis in connection with evolution.

But the Young Earth Creation teacher I was in the debate with was always getting upset with me because I would never defend Evolution.
He had just tons and tons of Anti-Evolution arguments all ready to go, but I simply did not really care what things he said against evolution.

I kept going back to the Bible...I kept answering his points with Scripture.

I kept pointing out to him that I was not there to "teach" Evolution.
I kept pointing out that I had never tried to teach anyone about Evolution, rather I just kept pointing out to people that if they open their Bible they will see that there are no Anti-Evolution arguments found within the text.


Thats all Im here to do as well.

Im not here to convince you that Evolution is true.

Im not qualified to teach you or anyone else science.

But I can talk to you about what both you and I can read in our Bibles.
I can show you things that perhaps you have never noticed before.

and I can point out to you the simple fact that the story of Genesis will actually walk hand-in-hand with Evolution nicely.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I once was in this huge debate on the question of how to look at Genesis in connection with evolution.

But the Young Earth Creation teacher I was in the debate with was always getting upset with me because I would never defend Evolution.
He had just tons and tons of Anti-Evolution arguments all ready to go, but I simply did not really care what things he said against evolution.

I kept going back to the Bible...I kept answering his points with Scripture.

I kept pointing out to him that I was not there to "teach" Evolution.
I kept pointing out that I had never tried to teach anyone about Evolution, rather I just kept pointing out to people that if they open their Bible they will see that there are no Anti-Evolution arguments found within the text.


Thats all Im here to do as well.

Im not here to convince you that Evolution is true.

Im not qualified to teach you or anyone else science.

But I can talk to you about what both you and I can read in our Bibles.
I can show you things that perhaps you have never noticed before.

and I can point out to you the simple fact that the story of Genesis will actually walk hand-in-hand with Evolution nicely.

I don’t understand. How are you not instructing if you can “point out”? A person doesn’t need a Doctorate to lead thought and discussion. But that too shifts attention away from my request any bible student should know.

I know after such an excursion of study which you have obviously endured, for you speak rather extensively. Then in your own words; how are we to safeguard against these two the bible warns us of? Okay, make that one question instead of the earlier two, , in your own words.

1. Shift of meanings
2. Off-limit concepts

I’m not searching for a confrontation Alan, just to understand your position.

Mike.
.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4Then I would like to ask you two questions.

.......

You then go on and on ,and I see 2points raised,and then a bunch of question marks, so Im not really all that sure what two questions you are interested in wanting me to address?

But the main point of your post seemed to be centered on what shall we use as Bible students to judge the truthfulness of what Im saying?


My answer is to once again point out that this same situation has come up before in the Bible,and so we have a very good example of how we should proceed.

Acts 17:2 sets the stage for us-
"As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,"

Here we see that Paul went to the Jews with the Good News about the death of the Christ. We also note here that when Paul taught he used the Scriptures.
Paul did not try to use some other source to support his teachings, rather he was reasoning with people from the Scriptures.

This is how we should proceed as well,following in Paul's example.

We should reason with each other from the Scriptures.

Acts 17:3 "He explained the prophecies and proved that the Messiah must suffer and rise from the dead."
This is the point where Paul had the trouble.
The Jews at the time had the common understanding that the Messiah would lead an army and get rid of the Romans.
Paul was teaching that the Messiah had died by the hand of the Romans.

So this is way, way different than the teaching that were being spread by the teachers at the time.


Kinda like what Im saying here to you!
Im saying things that are totally against what is being spread in the church by the YEC teachers.

But just as Paul would reason with people from the Scriptures to prove his point, so too I must use the scriptures to prove my point.


Now the story moves to how the Jews responded?
Acts 17:5 "But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob..."



This is a common way people stop ideas that they dont like, but cant argue against because they find that the Scriptures are not much help to their position.....they form a mob and they try to force people to be quiet rather then picking up the Bible and trying to prove their point with the Scriptures.

This happens today too....
People try to use other means to judge a Bible teaching by rather than comparing Scripture with scripture.


But we have a good example to learn from too in the life of Paul-

Acts 17:11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."





Here is how we are to judge what Im talking about!

The people in this city listened with interest to what Paul was talking about...But rather than forming a mob, rather than looking for other means to prove Paul wrong, what they do is pick up the Bible and look at the very Scriptures that Paul was using to see if what Paul was saying was true?





That is our answer!


To judge what Genesis is teaching, we should oepn up the Bible, turn to the book of Genesis, and, .......Read.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

I don’t understand. How are you not instructing if you can “point out”?

Im a student of the Bible.

Im not a student of science.


Over the years I have been in many a Bible study, and I also have been blessed a few times in teaching a Bible Study to students.

So I can say Im a "Bible teacher" because I have taught the Bible a few times in my life.
The Bible I know.

But Im not a science teacher.
Im not here to teach science.


So this is why I can say Im not here to teach evolution.
But I can say Im here to point out a few things the Bible says and does not say.