Religiondumb

[Saxon]

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a video...
But I think that Walter Martin has some very wise things to say on this topic that we can watch on youtube.

If someone were thinking that they would get some value from it I would suggest that they go listen to Walter Martin teach on this topic before they form too firm of an opinion against eternal security.

I have been listening to Walter Martin from the mid 1970’s. I found him to be an excellent teacher and I found that I agreed with him on most of what he taught. I disagree with him on the subject of eternal security or OSAS.

I have found nothing in the scriptures that indicate OSAS let alone state anything clearly about OSAS. OSAS is not there.

[alanmolstad]

There are also some recorded debates Walter had with people that believed we need to do works to keep ourselves saved that might help a person see Walter's point.

[alanmolstad]

One of the main ways the Cults draw new members is to teach the idea that you can never know for sure you are 100% saved forever.
When you have a doubt it opens the door and allows the Cults to put the idea into your head that you need to go to them and work to maintain your salvation.

The Cult's type of salvation is an earned one...
It's wadges....it's the payoff for working to support the Cult....

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Are you suggesting that I am in a cult? If you have read my posts you know that I do not believe in earning salvation.

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>



I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[Saxon]

I believe the point Im making is the a person opens the door to the world of the CULTS by allowing uncertanty into their hearts on the matter of their eternal salbvation.
The world of the CULTS is built on telling people that "You cant be sure you are saved forever, you need to work for it, you need to stay close to the CULT to learn what you need to do to remain saved"

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Its a works-based Salvation.

Its works-based because you have to maintain it via your own efforts.

Thus the concept of "Salvation" becomes a uncertanty in the heart of a person that is being swept-up into the teachings of a CULT>

Are you saying that if you do not believe OSAS it is a works salvation and therefore no one that believes OSAS is saved??? OSAS does not allow the believer in OSAS to know if they are saved. How many do you know that went back and were declared to have never been saved? They all thought that they were saved. YOU as a believer in OSAS do not and cannot know if you are saved. Are you in a cult??? See your last statement on the quote directly above.

Getting saved is a gift of God and no works are required. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9) After you are saved it is a different story, works are required because we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works. (See Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I remember back to when i worked with a JW.
He was never able to tell me that he had worked enough to be 100% sure he was saved.

mormons also have this same uncertanty about their salvation.
Remember their phrase, ".....after all you can do"?


More or less all CULTS have as their foundational teaching this idea that a person "Cant be sure"
When the person is unsure they are then suduced into thinking they need to try to work to make their salvation just a little bit more likely.
This is how the CULTS gets their members to work so hard for the CULT and why they run from house to house or stand on the sidewalk with tracts , etc.
The member of the CULT does their great "works" based on their personal need to try to make their future salvation more likely.
So this is why I reject all the teachings that go against the OSAS teaching that Walter Martin talks about in the many YouTube videos.

I will share with you a few videos that show us that the Good shepherd does not return empty handed ...nor does he ever return with just the 99 sheep safe.


I believe that if good shepherd is given 100 sheep to watch over , that later when the sheep are counted by the Father there will still be the same 100 sheep he was given because - "NONE WERE LOST!"

[alanmolstad]

Totally wrong....

Once you are one of the Lord's sheep you are never anothers......never ever.....

[alanmolstad]

The justification of works is before men.


That is how you know I'm saved..
You judge me by my works.

The justification by faith is before god....

So we are saved by grace though faith...and from this we can tell if we and others are saved by works...

For works do not save nor keep us saved...but works show us if our faith is living in our lives or is dead....

[alanmolstad]

[alanmolstad]

[alanmolstad]

and the best example of Walter Martin defending the teaching that we are saved once forever, is found at the 1:28:00 point of this debate video.

[Saxon]

We do the works because we are saved. If you stop being saved, fall from grace, the works stop. You seem to have stated it in reverse.

God is constant and never changing. We on the opposite side of the fence are in constant change and never remain the same.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I would like to suggest that at the point of salvation we all become ALL the Christian that we ever will become. A person is either a Christian or a sinner, there is no in-between. What the writer of Hebrews said was that we (Christians) should go on to perfection, or maturity as stated in numerous versions. (See Hebrews 6:1) In the transition to perfection we all learn and stumble and get picked up and carry on. This is normal and expected. This happens as we follow the Lord.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,




Are you suggesting that it is legalistic to disagree with the thought of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)?

What does deception mean to you? You have stated that Christians can be deceived so I will ***ume that you believe that we, as Christians are open to the full onslaught of deception.

In the following definition items 1, 3 and 4 seem to fit the idea in the Christian realm. What is the point of being deceived? If we cannot fall from grace (See Galatians 5:4) why would Satan waste time deceiving Christians? It is possible to fall from grace. (See Galatians 5:4)

Deceived: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deceived
transitive verb
1 archaic: ensnare
2a obsolete: to be false to
b archaic : to fail to fulfill
3 obsolete: cheat
4: to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
5 archaic : to while away
intransitive verb
: to practice deceit; also : to give a false impression <appearances can deceive>

You have fallen short on the truck driver. Even the one that drives twice a month is still driving the truck. I am referring to the one that stops driving the truck.

As I pointed out in Ephesians 2:10 it is conditional and performance. Getting salvation from God is a gift, but being a Christian is work. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works and God has ordained that we should walk in them. That is a condition of being a Christian, do the works God ordained for Christians to do.

1 John 2:19 is not workable to the OSAS discussion as there is no possible way to determine if the ones that walked away were or were not saved at one point in time. All it shows is that they were with them and left them. All we can do is pick an opinion that seems correct. The fact that they were with them is compelling me to think that they were saved but walked away. You are of the opinion that they were with them just checking things out and decided not to believe. All we have is opinion and opinion proves nothing.

“Many who say this man was a Christian but has now become lost again were looking at a lost man all along.” All this does for me is ask the question, who can know if they are saved or not? OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

Perhaps you get the impression that I think salvation is a free p*** to sin or that a little
sin once in a while is ok. I don’t believe either one but the Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful, that a sinful nature is a part of all of us, there are none who are righteous. This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant. James 2:10 tells us that whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, past, present and future. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death?

[Saxon]

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

You have quoted the scripture correctly. It is true that no one can snatch them out of God’s hand. It is also true that no one can separate us from the love of God. (See Romans 8:38 to 39) That does not stop God from statements such as Ezekiel 18:26, Romans 1:21 and Romans 11:20 to 21. If read as they are written they all say that you can still be lost after salvation.

No one can snatch you out of his hand but you can act in a way that you depart from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) Romans 5:8 states that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. God loves us as sinners and saints. It is imposable to separate anyone from the LOVE of God. To separate a Christian from salvation is quite possible.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Perhaps you get the impression that I think salvation is a free p*** to sin or that a little
sin once in a while is ok. I don’t believe either one but the Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful, that a sinful nature is a part of all of us, there are none who are righteous. This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant. James 2:10 tells us that whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, past, present and future. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death?

If you are to take OSAS to its logical conclusion, a saved person can sin with out penalty, ask Charles Stanley.

Yes we all sin 1John 1:8 makes that clear. Remember 1John is written to Christians and in verse 9 we, Christians, are told that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is to keep us pure and sin free. The wages of sin is still death. There has not been any change to that statement in the past 2,000 years. Romans 6:23 is the yardstick! (See Romans 6:23)

You said , “Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy.” I say that without Jesus Christ, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual life in jeopardy. Doctrine does not save and keep you, Jesus Christ does. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that would lead me to believe OSAS is from the Bible.

I notice that you have avoided responding to the statements that I made in the post that you responded to. Are you going address them?


1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[alanmolstad]

I reject totally the idea that a christian can lose their salvation.

I reject even the concept of a God that would place the gift of salvation into such silly conditions.
I reject the idea that in the Kingdom there are abortions of the children of God.


The lost sheep are ALWAYS found by the the good shepherd!
The good shepherd never comes home with one missing!


Some sheep come when they are called, but a few dont come and get lost.
But the good shepherd will leave the 99 sheep and go seek the one that was lost...for the value of that lost one is greater than all the other 99 to the Shepherd.

That is why when the shepherd finds the lost sheep the shepherd will "carry" it home.
The lost sheep was not required to "return on it's own"
The good Shepherd does not just stand at the gate and call out and hope the lost sheep hears and returns on it's own.........NO!

When the lost coin is talked about, we read that the women looking for it does not stop until she finds it.
She simply keeps looking no matter how long it takes or how much work it is to search for what was lost.
In her actions to find the lost coin we have an example of what it is like when a Christian falls into sins and walks away from the Lord...
The Lord simply NEVER GIVES UP!........the LORD does not get tired,,,He does not think the time is wasted....He does not think the person is ever 'too far gone to return".......

The Lord ALWAYS saves the Christian.....always brings him to his arms.....always.

The God of Once saved, forever safe is the only God worth worshiping.



This also iswhy I bring up the idea thatif you doubt you are saved once and forever you open the door to theworld of the CULTS.

The world of the CULTS is built on the foundation that the person can "Never be sure"
The person that is trapped inside a CULT is unsure they have done enough "good works" to enter Heaven.

The CULT teaches that the person can lose their salvation as a means to keep the CULT membership from questioning their teachings.
Fear fills the heart of a person inside a CULT, fear that even a doubt about some of the CULT's teachings may be enough to lose their salvation.

For a good example of the type of teachings that I stand 100% against, I will post a link to a person who teaches CULT teachings.
It is my hope that if you right now think that you cant be 100% sure you are saved forever that you read what this CULT teacher says on the matter , and see how his false teachings do work twist fear into the heart of a person...aswell as it will drive them deeper and deeper into the world of the CULT seeking to be safer from the loss of salvation that the CULT teaches is just around the corner at all times...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pentecost...-salvation.htm




I hope you can see the errors in the link's teachings....and come to have faith that God who has saved you will never-ever allow you to slip from his hands....

[alanmolstad]

and......Most importantly....


No one falls from Grace!

[Saxon]

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Explain.

[Saxon]

I reject totally the idea that a christian can lose their salvation.

I reject even the concept of a God that would place the gift of salvation into such silly conditions.
I reject the idea that in the Kingdom there are abortions of the children of God.

As I said before, abortion is not the problem. An abortion occurs before birth takes place. The wages of sin is death and when a person sins they die, they are not aborted. Has Romans 6:23 been rescinded?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The lost sheep are ALWAYS found by the the good shepherd!
The good shepherd never comes home with one missing!

Lost is lost until found.

Some sheep come when they are called, but a few dont come and get lost.
But the good shepherd will leave the 99 sheep and go seek the one that was lost...for the value of that lost one is greater than all the other 99 to the Shepherd.

That is why when the shepherd finds the lost sheep the shepherd will "carry" it home.
The lost sheep was not required to "return on it's own"
The good Shepherd does not just stand at the gate and call out and hope the lost sheep hears and returns on it's own.........NO!

This is an emotional response. The parable that you are alluding to is not how it happens every time. The sheep that are LOST are sometime eaten before they can be found, some are never found. Jesus taught reality, not some idealistic rubbish that doesn’t always happen. The scriptures say that Jesus lost Judas the son of perdition.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

When the lost coin is talked about, we read that the women looking for it does not stop until she finds it.
She simply keeps looking no matter how long it takes or how much work it is to search for what was lost.
In her actions to find the lost coin we have an example of what it is like when a Christian falls into sins and walks away from the Lord...
The Lord simply NEVER GIVES UP!........the LORD does not get tired,,,He does not think the time is wasted....He does not think the person is ever 'too far gone to return".......

The Lord ALWAYS saves the Christian.....always brings him to his arms.....always.

The God of Once saved, forever safe is the only God worth worshiping.

This is more emotion. The lost coins are still lost until they are found. You may have lost something that you have valued but could not find it.

This also iswhy I bring up the idea thatif you doubt you are saved once and forever you open the door to theworld of the CULTS.

Is the act of believing OSAS now a condition of salvation?? Paul and Silas said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved”. They obviously didn’t know about OSAS being a condition of salvation. (See Acts 16:30 and 31) Either scripture means what it says or it doesn’t.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

What makes you think that if I do not believe OSAS that I doubt that I am saved? I know that I am saved and am able to repent when I become aware that I am going into error. With OSAS on your side you can be dead wrong and it doesn’t seem to matter. (See Ezekiel 18:24 and 26) It matters.

The world of the CULTS is built on the foundation that the person can "Never be sure"
The person that is trapped inside a CULT is unsure they have done enough "good works" to enter Heaven.

The CULT teaches that the person can lose their salvation as a means to keep the CULT membership from questioning their teachings.
Fear fills the heart of a person inside a CULT, fear that even a doubt about some of the CULT's teachings may be enough to lose their salvation.

For a good example of the type of teachings that I stand 100% against, I will post a link to a person who teaches CULT teachings.
It is my hope that if you right now think that you cant be 100% sure you are saved forever that you read what this CULT teacher says on the matter , and see how his false teachings do work twist fear into the heart of a person...aswell as it will drive them deeper and deeper into the world of the CULT seeking to be safer from the loss of salvation that the CULT teaches is just around the corner at all times...

OSAS kills any idea that anyone can know that they are saved and this is contrary to 1 John 5:13. John says that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have a friend that was saved, and “knew” that he was saved, but now he has nothing good to say about Jesus or the Bible. You are in the same predicament if OSAS is true, you do not know if you are saved. You could be the next one that thinks you’re saved and then turn back to your old ways. All OSAS has done, in reality, is sow the seed of doubt. As long as you believe OSAS and follow it to its logical conclusion, you can never know for sure if you are saved.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pentecost...-salvation.htm

I hope you can see the errors in the link's teachings....and come to have faith that God who has saved you will never-ever allow you to slip from his hands....

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezekiel 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel is a prophet of God. Did he speak falsely?

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Enduring to the end is a condition. Did Jesus make a false statement?

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Here is a receiver of the word and then is offended (lost) Maybe Jesus stretched it a bit on this one?

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

If OSAS is true, why did Paul and Barnabas have to persuade them to CONTINUE in the grace of God?

I have shown you from both Old and New Testaments that a person that is saved can still be lost if they do not continue in righteousness. There many more that will tell the same warning. Either it is correct or the Bible is not as it claims; the word of God.

I have noticed that you are not making any attempt to show me that my statements are wrong with scripture. You seem to not want to answer my questions either. Are you not willing to carry on a conversation by replying to my statements in a direct fashion? I try to answer you as directly as possible and would like you to answer me directly as well.

[Saxon]

Give scriptural support for any or all of your points.

[alanmolstad]

do what a Christin should do?


They once asked Christ what must we do to "work the works of God?"

The answer Christ gave them was that there is only "Thee work of God".....meaning there is only one work,,,one thing that God requires of christians.

What is that "work"???????The answer is that the only work that we are required to perform is to "believe on him whom the father has sent"





This connects with the idea that salvation is by GRACE though FAITH.



If you have that work in your life, then that is enough.

[Saxon]

do what a Christin should do?


They once asked Christ what must we do to "work the works of God?"

The answer Christ gave them was that there is only "Thee work of God".....meaning there is only one work,,,one thing that God requires of christians.

What is that "work"???????The answer is that the only work that we are required to perform is to "believe on him whom the father has sent"





This connects with the idea that salvation is by GRACE though FAITH.



If you have that work in your life, then that is enough.

John 6:28 is about gaining salvation, Believe on him “Christ”. Salvation is a gift. You do not seem to be able to differentiate between GETTING saved and BEING in a saved condition. One comes after the other. Get saved (a gift from God) and then live the Christian life.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9 states we are saved by grace through faith and it is a gift not works. Ephesians 2:10 states that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. God has ordained the works and we should walk in them (good works). Your idea that we just get saved and wait for the sweet by and by is totally false.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Saxon]

Hello Saxon,

I must first say that I believe that when a person is truly born again it is eternal, no losing your salvation. What happens if a Christian stops doing what God expects him to do? It's a hard question to answer, if you are ***uming disobedience then fellowship with God is affected and perhaps we have a situation similar to the prodigal son, still a son but no longer receiving the benefits normally given to one in the family.

The prodigal son is an excellent situation that answers the question. Disobedience to God is sin. The wages of sin is still death unless Romans 6:23 has been rescinded. When the son took his part of the inheritance and departed from the Father he was not being obedient to the will of the father and sinned against him. Luke 15:24 is clear that the son was not simply out of fellowship, but he was dead. He may have still been a son but he was a dead son. His act of repentance restored him to life and to the Father.

Two questions for you; When you get saved, what is eternal, life for you? Ultimately, what is Eternal Life?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Saxon

The prodigal son is an excellent situation that answers the question. Disobedience to God is sin. The wages of sin is still death unless Romans 6:23 has been rescinded. When the son took his part of the inheritance and departed from the Father he was not being obedient to the will of the father and sinned against him. Luke 15:24 is clear that the son was not simply out of fellowship, but he was dead. He may have still been a son but he was a dead son. His act of repentance restored him to life and to the Father.

Two questions for you; When you get saved, what is eternal, life or you? Ultimately, what is Eternal Life?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

I will try to answer both your questions. First we are told in John 17:3,"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.
There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love and His promise keeps Him from doing so. Remember, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to provide? It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us. Even as Christians we are not perfect and could never be trusted to keep ourselves, so it is Him who keeps us. Jude 1:24-25 tells us,"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

[Saxon]

I will try to answer both your questions. First we are told in John 17:3,"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

I can agree with what you have said about eternal life. I do believe that a clearer understanding of eternal life will include what you have said but is much more than what you have said.

Eternal Life is a condition that exists in Christ alone. Only those that are “in Christ” are experiencing Eternal Life. The following verses are all ***ociating (Eternal) Life to Jesus Christ. So the answer to the question, what is ultimately Eternal Life? Would be that Jesus Christ is Eternal Life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love and His promise keeps Him from doing so. Remember, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to provide? It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us. Even as Christians we are not perfect and could never be trusted to keep ourselves, so it is Him who keeps us. Jude 1:24-25 tells us,"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

The reason that there is absolutely no evidence in Scripture that the Lord has ever taken back the gift of salvation once it has been given is because there is nowhere in scripture that this has never happened. I find that there are a lot of people that read where it is written, “I will never leave you or forsake you” (See Hebrews 13:5) and immediately forget it and start to argue that he will never leave you or forsake you. This is not the problem. The problem is the believer that leaves and forsakes the living God. (See Hebrews 3:12 and Ezekiel 18:26) You will notice that the problem is not the Lord leaving or forsaking us, but us leaving and forsaking him.

I do disagree with your statement, “It is obvious that if we could lose our salvation we would, all of us.” 1John was written to Christians and tells us what we must do if we find ourselves in sin. Contrary to popular belief, salvation is conditional. The IF condition in 1John 1:9 is one of the many conditions of salvation in scripture. If we follow the lead of the majority and ignore these conditional statements we will surly find ourselves in a surprising situation. If we believe the conditions and warnings in scripture then we shall not find ourselves with this problem. It is the very warnings that keep us from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.