19th Century Photo of Joseph Smith’s “Caractors” Discovered

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

My apologies, see post #9

You mean this post, that was made by fakehair?

"I wonder if the phrase,( and it came to p***.) was in any of the Smith's dreams?
As many times as it appears in the Book of Mormon it may explain why Smith family were so weird."

What am I supposed to be seeing in there that is worthy of a serious response?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You mean this post, that was made by fakehair?

"I wonder if the phrase,( and it came to p***.) was in any of the Smith's dreams?
As many times as it appears in the Book of Mormon it may explain why Smith family were so weird."

What am I supposed to be seeing in there that is worthy of a serious response?

Why thanks for askin. With hat in hand Joseph Smith jr. placed his face into said hat and read word for word the great Mormon god had given him to read. Question to Nrajeffreturns, do you really think the great Mormon god got stuck on the phrase (and it came to p***, and it came to p***, and it came to p***, and it came to p*** and it came to p***.) and so forth?

[Snow Patrol]

"Not the best person to trust with your eternal destiny"

Good thing I don't then.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"Not the best person to trust with your eternal destiny"

Good thing I don't then.

Why that is very thoughtful. For this reason I'd never trust my Eternal destiny to anyone, but the Jesus of the Holy Bible. Althougth The 72 virgins of Islam sound pretty good to me. I got only one question do they stay virgins?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You mean this post, that was made by fakehair?

"I wonder if the phrase,( and it came to p***.) was in any of the Smith's dreams?
As many times as it appears in the Book of Mormon it may explain why Smith family were so weird."

What am I supposed to be seeing in there that is worthy of a serious response?

Sorry. Unbeknownst to me the post numbers are not static...

This is the post here which I tried to direct you to.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by MacG

Sory. Unbeknownst to me the post numbers are not static...

This is the post here which I tried to direct you to.

You may want to try again. The post you linked to was created hours after your "See post #9". It would have been impossible to send him to James' post because it wasn't created yet.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You may want to try again. The post you linked to was created hours after your "See post #9". It would have been impossible to send him to James' post because it wasn't created yet.

Thanks. I fix.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

Thanks. I fix.

OK, I can give a response to that if you want. Give me a little time to look at it and consider it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

Let's say for the sake of argument there is no plagiarism.

ok

There are two predominant languages which are translated into 17th century English, KJV.

You are referring to Hebrew for the OT, and Greek for the NT?

By the nineteenth century other translations from the same original languages into nineteenth century English were produced not sounding like stale two hundred year old common English.

Source of this claim?

Maybe not so unusual is that another story of the main protagonist comes to light in the 19th century set in another country in yet a third language not native to the land where the story takes place.

You don't find that unusual? I think some would call it sensational.

What is unusual is that this third language has portions translated by a man speaking from birth 19th century English translating a character based language into 17th century English - the "Authorized" language of the long dead King.

You find that to be more unusual than 3 guys being thrown into a furnace and coming out fine? If a man claims that God helped him to accomplish something "unusual" then doesn't that pretty much resolve issues of implausibility? Are there things that God is unable to help a man accomplish? Suppose it's the 19th century, and God wants the BOM to be translated from its imperfect original ancient language into imperfect 19th-century English. What's the big deal? The first English Bible was translated in the 14th century, into 14th-century English--yet the original languages were Hebrew and Greek, and very old. Should that really be a problem?

In their respective tongues, try having a German man write about guy which he went to school with and a Spanish man who went to school with the same guy and the same school at the same time. Now have a Chinese man write about the same guy that he went school with in another country at a different time. Have studied men translate the German and the Spanish into English but have the Chinese translated by smart guy without the credentials of man and also has no knowledge of Chinese much less of a dialect that few are familiar with.

Are any of these translators being helped by God?

What are the chances that the translation of third account will match word-for-word, significant portions of each of the German and Spanish accounts of their scholastic time together with the same guy?

If the translation is sufficient to be understandable by the intended audience, who cares?

Do not forget that the studied men made some spelling and grammar mistakes in English and the unlearned translator of the Chinese made the very same mistakes.

What if it wasn't their goal to eliminate all mistakes made by former compilers or translators?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"Not the best person to trust with your eternal destiny"

Good thing I don't then.

You don't? The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the way to the Father.. What does mormonism teach?

We cannot return to our Heavenly Father’s presence unless we are clean, and so we must continue to repent. Ideally, we repent moment by moment, but we also attend sacrament meeting each week to partake of the sacrament and renew our baptismal covenants. Second, enduring to the end requires the Holy Ghost, who will both guide and sanctify us. Third, we must be an integral part of a community of Saints, serving and receiving service from our brothers and sisters in the gospel. With baptism we become part of the body of Christ

Fourth, we must share the gospel with others. The promises of bringing even one soul unto the Lord are profound and eternal (see D&C 18:15). Moreover, the gospel takes deeper root in those who share it frequently. Finally, we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ to endure to the end, and among the many ways we do this are praying, fasting, and reading the scriptures. These practices will fortify us against the subtle schemes and fiery darts of the adversary. (Elder L. Tom Perry, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, April 2008, The Gospel of Jesus Christ).

This then is the message of Smith that salvation is NOT the promise of God to us through faith in Jesus and not of Works. No, this is pointing out that we must do, do, do, do, and do.. Mormonism believing more in Joseph Smith as a prophet than it does in Jesus as the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. Too Much of Smith writings and not enough of God's messages to us.. If you are half the mormon you make yourself out to be then you put a man and man's teaching above God and His teachings.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You don't? The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the way to the Father.. What does mormonism teach?

We cannot return to our Heavenly Father’s presence unless we are clean, and so we must continue to repent. Ideally, we repent moment by moment, but we also attend sacrament meeting each week to partake of the sacrament and renew our baptismal covenants. Second, enduring to the end requires the Holy Ghost, who will both guide and sanctify us. Third, we must be an integral part of a community of Saints, serving and receiving service from our brothers and sisters in the gospel. With baptism we become part of the body of Christ

Fourth, we must share the gospel with others. The promises of bringing even one soul unto the Lord are profound and eternal (see D&C 18:15). Moreover, the gospel takes deeper root in those who share it frequently. Finally, we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ to endure to the end, and among the many ways we do this are praying, fasting, and reading the scriptures. These practices will fortify us against the subtle schemes and fiery darts of the adversary. (Elder L. Tom Perry, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, April 2008, The Gospel of Jesus Christ).

This then is the message of Smith that salvation is NOT the promise of God to us through faith in Jesus and not of Works. No, this is pointing out that we must do, do, do, do, and do.. Mormonism believing more in Joseph Smith as a prophet than it does in Jesus as the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. Too Much of Smith writings and not enough of God's messages to us.. If you are half the mormon you make yourself out to be then you put a man and man's teaching above God and His teachings.. IHS jim

This from the person that jumps all over a story about two people fighting in a church. You have a hypocritical stance. You, yourself say that the way one shows they are a christian is by them loving one another, not fighting, repenting if one does something wrong, etc. etc. Your "hyper-criticism" is kicking in here. "Finally, we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ to endure to the end, and among the many ways we do this are praying, fasting, and reading the scriptures." Oops, there it is.... we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

This from the person that jumps all over a story about two people fighting in a church. You have a hypocritical stance. You, yourself say that the way one shows they are a christian is by them loving one another, not fighting, repenting if one does something wrong, etc. etc. Your "hyper-criticism" is kicking in here. "Finally, we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ to endure to the end, and among the many ways we do this are praying, fasting, and reading the scriptures." Oops, there it is.... we must always maintain faith and hope in Christ.

Is that what you are teaching enduring to the end is? It is maintain our faith in Jesus and our hope in the resurrection through Him? Is that the full teaching of mormonism for the best salvation God has prepared for His children? Seems to me that you are ignoring most of what mormonism teaches in respect to "All I must do to live with Him someday".. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Is that what you are teaching enduring to the end is? It is maintain our faith in Jesus and our hope in the resurrection through Him? Is that the full teaching of mormonism for the best salvation God has prepared for His children? Seems to me that you are ignoring most of what mormonism teaches in respect to "All I must do to live with Him someday".. IHS jim

Absolutely I am. Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Absolutely I am. Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

Then the temple means nothing to you to gain God's best that he has in store for those that believe.. And your baptism is no more effective than those that believe in a spiritual baptism, sprinkling or even infant baptism. Your priesthood has no more authority that the priesthood of all believers.. After all it is by your faith you are saved and the works God does through you are His and not your own.. You do them not for salvation's sake but to honor God with your sacrifice of your efforts and time.. That isn't the mormonism I was ever taught. I was taught that baptism is a required ordinance and that only by the proper authority and through the authorization of those holding the correct keys.. That a man can't receive God's best salvation (exaltation) without temple marriage. That enduring to the end meant in righteousness not just in faith.. You have come up with your own version of mormonism.. It is so different that calling it mormonism is anything but honest..

Explain it to Jeff just as you just did to me and have him agree with you.. That I would love to see.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Then the temple means nothing to you to gain God's best that he has in store for those that believe.. And your baptism is no more effective than those that believe in a spiritual baptism, sprinkling or even infant baptism. Your priesthood has no more authority that the priesthood of all believers.. After all it is by your faith you are saved and the works God does through you are His and not your own.. You do them not for salvation's sake but to honor God with your sacrifice of your efforts and time.. That isn't the mormonism I was ever taught. I was taught that baptism is a required ordinance and that only by the proper authority and through the authorization of those holding the correct keys.. That a man can't receive God's best salvation (exaltation) without temple marriage. That enduring to the end meant in righteousness not just in faith.. You have come up with your own version of mormonism.. It is so different that calling it mormonism is anything but honest.. IHS jim

You know, I won't ever be able to satisfy your demands because you keep changing those demands. Are we talking about being saved or are we now talking about exaltation and receiving all the rewards in heaven that the father has? Even mainstream christians believe that there are different rewards in heaven and that one must live up to the requirements in order to obtain the different rewards.

You know what, you can have the last word, but you will never be able to convince me that I place my faith and trust in anyone other than Jesus Christ. End of discussion.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Absolutely I am. Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

Jeff, do you care to comment?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Absolutely I am. Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

That's like running the race and never finishing it.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

That's like running the race and never finishing it.

What's the alternative? From an "outsiders" view, the mainstream christian process could look like a person taking one step and then it doesn't matter what they do for the rest of their lives. How would you describe the christian process?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You know, I won't ever be able to satisfy your demands because you keep changing those demands. Are we talking about being saved or are we now talking about exaltation and receiving all the rewards in heaven that the father has? Even mainstream christians believe that there are different rewards in heaven and that one must live up to the requirements in order to obtain the different rewards.

You know what, you can have the last word, but you will never be able to convince me that I place my faith and trust in anyone other than Jesus Christ. End of discussion.

All I do is mention the parts of mormonism that you seem to deny.. You want to be seen as a Christian that believes that salvation come to us by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. But turn my back for an instance and you add baptism, laying on of hands, and enduring to the end IN RIGHTEOUSNESS as requirements.. I have not moved the Goal posts one inch. The requirements are to believe in Jesus and be saved.. Here is the trick, you can't believe in A JESUS, you have to believe in THE JESUS.. The difference is the second is the Jesus revealed in the Bible the first is a creation of a man's mind.. There is no moving the goal post in asking that holding faith in the real Jesus be part of the requirement to have faith in Jesus..

I said clearly that we receive the BEST salvation God can give to us.. Even access to the Celestial kingdom is taught within mormonism as a combination of what God has done and what we do.

Elder Russell M. Nelson Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles teaches:

People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him. (April church conference 2008, lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng).

It is mormonism that is moving the goal post here. Throwing in mere resurrection and calling it salvation, then spinning 90 degrees and calling gaining the Celestial kingdom salvation and then turning another 90 degrees and calling exaltation the only real salvation and piling up the requirements at each new turn is the real moving the goal posts that mormons commonly do.. Christians have one salvation, that is everlasting life with God.. There is no goal post to move.. You are either obedient to Matthew 5:48 in Jesus or you are not.. Perfection in Jesus, or ****ation in the Lake of Fire no part way nor levels of salvation.. It's a simple either or situation. You man invented levels and part way salvations are just not biblical.. They are a confused mess of lies to satisfy Joseph Smith universalistic ideas planted into him by his parents; they are not found in the scripture. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

What's the alternative? From an "outsiders" view, the mainstream christian process could look like a person taking one step and then it doesn't matter what they do for the rest of their lives. How would you describe the christian process?

Glad you asked. The alternative is to put your trust in Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible, and what He did for the believer.
Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible paid a debt that no human could ever do. The Jesus of the Holy Bible died for the sins of the world. He didn't die on the Cross for you or I to take advantage of by our works. Christ would not had to die on the Cross just for us to further our works toward a goal of some kind. It doesn't make any sense for Him to sacrifice Himself just so we can continue a process that the Old Testament already offered, ie works for forgiveness.
As Paul put it, the law became of no effect, thus we had Jesus of the Holy Bible pay for our sins.
It may not sound fair, we get all the credit and He did all the work. Okay that is the way mankind in our on mind should look at it, but God's ways are not our ways.
To put it simply Christ did it, and all I did was accept His offer, and that's all there is to it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Jeff, do you care to comment?

Sure: I agree with what you said:

Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

The Bible supports the LDS belief that we demonstrate or prove that we have faith by obeying Christ's commandments.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure: I agree with what you said:

Enduring to the end means to continue to the end to have faith in Jesus Christ and His work on behalf of me. Do I maintain my living faith by my works? Yes. I always remember that faith without works is dead.

The Bible supports the LDS belief that we demonstrate or prove that we have faith by obeying Christ's commandments.

Let me see if I understand you. Faith is works, and works is on a balance beam with sin on one side and non-sin on the other side with a watchman in the middle on the level judging which way or the other are on for the moment?
I guess I get it?

[Snow Patrol]

Please explain that in your race ****ogy. You say Mormonism is a race that never ends. What is Christianity?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Please explain that in your race ****ogy. You say Mormonism is a race that never ends. What is Christianity?

In Joseph Smith jr. Doctrine, exaltation is a journey that begin when the mormon god did the tango with one of his wives, and sometime later a spirit baby was born and they named him Snow Patrol. Don't ask we how I know that, I just know.
Anyways, SNow Patrol was given to his earthly parents, and thus begin his earthly journey. He has now embark towards His exaltation as a TBM, but it is a perilous path, fraught with danger of all kind; Sex, Druges, Coca-Cola, god forbid. These things can not be overlooked by the mormon god unless you are a famous, and or rich, and then the Bishop just says, "well everyone can't be perfect."
This never ending race goes with the departed into the unknown world at which time Joseph Smith jr. You know the guy would made it all up. He is there to greet you with the secret handshake, and boy you better not forget it.
Anyways, you have made it to the highest heaven, well maybe you didn't. Just missed it by a few unanswered sins, who knows, but anyways, you aint finished yet. More work to be done, so you begin to work it all out with the head-guy-incharge. Soon after to paid your dues it is off to the Celestial heaven and a brief stop because it is EXALTATION, that awaits you. You own plante is in sight, but you have to look over the mormon heavens and pick out your wives to take with you. The only problem you have is a warning from some of the old timers not to make the mistake of picking a best looking your virgins for yourself because they belong to Smith and Brigham, and you don't want to be kicked down the the lowest of mormon heavens where RealFakeHair is, if you know what I mean.
Anyways, you see how now you are in a race you can never finish, it is impossible, buy hey atleast you know how to avoid being stuck in the lower heaven with me.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Let me see if I understand you.

Yeah, let's see.

Faith is works

Nope. You didn't understand. Faith is dead if it isn't accompanied by obedience. That doesn't mean that faith IS works. Your logic is like saying that flour is cake.
One Christian said that faith and good works are like the 2 blades of a scissors--the scissors are useless and unproductive if either one is missing. You need both to make it work.

But in your logic, there is only one blade called faith, which is also called works. Again, it seems you didn't understand.

and works is on a balance beam with sin on one side and non-sin on the other side with a watchman in the middle on the level judging which way or the other are on for the moment?
I guess I get it?

Bzzzzt. Thanks for playing, here are some nice consolation prizes....