Joseph Smith's Motives

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4JlJaD2fks

[alanmolstad]

mostly what I see true in the actions of Smith and the reason he did the things he did was.....sex.

Thats about it....mostly just the sex was his main concern with his teachings....sex and power and money to be sure..

But when you read of how he would try to jump from bed to bed with different young girls, and how he was sniffing around the wives of the men he sent out of town on a 'mission", when you read that even at the end when he was on the run from the people who were out to kill him, even then as he took shelter in the homes of his most trusted followers, even THEN he would chase after the young daughters who also lived there.

[BigJulie]

mostly what I see true in the actions of Smith and the reason he did the things he did was.....sex.

Thats about it....mostly just the sex was his main concern with his teachings....sex and power and money to be sure..

But when you read of how he would try to jump from bed to bed with different young girls, and how he was sniffing around the wives of the men he sent out of town on a 'mission", when you read that even at the end when he was on the run from the people who were out to kill him, even then as he took shelter in the homes of his most trusted followers, even THEN he would chase after the young daughters who also lived there.

Yes, I can see why you would believe it was about sex. Or as Jesus Christ stated: "And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant" Luk 19:22

The one thing I come to understand about men is that they way that they see Joseph Smith tells me a LOT about how they see women. Marriage to them is about sex, not love, not protection, not responsibility. Therefore, if Joseph Smith married more than one woman, it must because he wanted sex. Because in YOUR eyes, this is what women and marriage must be for.

On the other hand, Christ also states "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Mat 7:18

And here is the proof of the revelations given to Joseph Smith regarding marriage--my husband, my son, my son-in-law--each treat their wife well. Their belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored by Joseph Smith has turned their hearts from lustful beings into men who honor their wives and marriage.

[Phoenix]

I liked your observation about how men see Joseph Smith and marriage. I think there is truth in that.

BTW your inbox is full.

[DrDavidT]

Or as Jesus Christ stated: "And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant" Luk 19:22

How does that verse apply to what molstad said? How was he being a wicked servant by making an observation about the proclivities of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God? Since we know Smith's sexual activity and pedophilia traits, Molstad is not the one being wicked and how could Smith lead a church given the verses in both ***us and Timothy which state that overseers are to be the husband of one wife?

There is no biblical instruction for church leaders to live as the patriarchs lived and have multiple wives, including female children.


The one thing I come to understand about men is that they way that they see Joseph Smith tells me a LOT about how they see women. Marriage to them is about sex, not love, not protection, not responsibility. Therefore, if Joseph Smith married more than one woman, it must because he wanted sex. Because in YOUR eyes, this is what women and marriage must be for.

Your interpretation certainly does not make what you say as true and mislabels men who make the same observation yet do not view women and marriage as you describe.


On the other hand, Christ also states "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Mat 7:18

You keep bringing this verse but do not provide any evidence that Smith was producing good fruit. He was killed because of his sins not because he was holy and producing good fruit.


And here is the proof of the revelations given to Joseph Smith regarding marriage--my husband, my son, my son-in-law--each treat their wife well. Their belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored by Joseph Smith has turned their hearts from lustful beings into men who honor their wives and marriage.

This isn't proof as many mormon men had multiple wives including Brigham Young. The idea of polygamy was dropped even though Smith said it was a command of God to have more than one wife when it was revealed that Utah would not receive statehood if they continued to believe and practice polygamy. It wasn't a holy change of a divine mind but the greed and selfish desire to be part of a secular nation that drove the Mormon church to give up one if its supposed divine commands.

[BigJulie]

How does that verse apply to what molstad said? How was he being a wicked servant by making an observation about the proclivities of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God? Since we know Smith's sexual activity and pedophilia traits, Molstad is not the one being wicked and how could Smith lead a church given the verses in both ***us and Timothy which state that overseers are to be the husband of one wife?

Christ's statement speaks to the truth that those who are wicked jump to believing that others are wicked or motivated by wickedness. In terms of psychology, it is called projection.


There is no biblical instruction for church leaders to live as the patriarchs lived and have multiple wives, including female children. What Biblical patriarchs are you referring to? Abraham, Jacob? Do you believe that Abraham would have multiple wives if God told him NOT to?



Your interpretation certainly does not make what you say as true and mislabels men who make the same observation yet do not view women and marriage as you describe. I have yet to experience otherwise. A man who views marriage as honorable which includes the responsibility to wife and children tend to jump more to the responsibility, not the sex side. It speaks to where a man's brain in when he thinks of marriage and women.




You keep bringing this verse but do not provide any evidence that Smith was producing good fruit. He was killed because of his sins not because he was holy and producing good fruit. The fruit is my husband, my son, my son-in-law and other men I know who live the gospel as revealed by Joseph Smith. You seem to think that fruit is only produced by a person, rather than the offshoots of what that person taught.

Certainly, you would not require this same "proof" from Christ. Although the Pharisees called him wicked and murdered him for it, would you deny the "good fruit" of the lives today by those who believe in and follow Jesus Christ?



This isn't proof as many mormon men had multiple wives including Brigham Young. The idea of polygamy was dropped even though Smith said it was a command of God to have more than one wife when it was revealed that Utah would not receive statehood if they continued to believe and practice polygamy. It wasn't a holy change of a divine mind but the greed and selfish desire to be part of a secular nation that drove the Mormon church to give up one if its supposed divine commands.

It is proof because my husband and I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I also have many ancestors who did practice polygamy. I know what type of people they were and what type of children they had. You think this not fruit? This is exactly the fruit of the revelations given to Joseph Smith which include the sanc***y of marriage, the eternal nature of marriage, the eternal nature of family and of children. While Alan only sees sex, what the fruit of this teaching is a man who loves and honors his wife. No other church that I know of teaches the sanc***y of family and its special place to God like Mormonism does. This makes us unique. This is one of the most beautiful understandings of who we are and who we are to God. Alan sees sex. We see family, unity, eternity, creation.

So yes, what Alan states specifically speaks to his mindset and how he views women.

[DrDavidT]

I have read julie's post but will only respond to select points as most of her words are just pure foolishness.

The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior.

Belief is not proof that something is true and of God. It is evidence that someone has accepted the words of another person.

The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.

[BigJulie]

I have read julie's post but will only respond to select points as most of her words are just pure foolishness.1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior. And yet these are the "patriarchs" that he identifies Himself with. He calls himself "
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mat 22:32

If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.



The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".

Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset. If polygamy equates to only being a pervert for sex, then the same thing should be said about the patriarchs who clearly had multiple wives.

[BigJulie]

I have read julie's post but will only respond to select points as most of her words are just pure foolishness.1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior. And yet these are the "patriarchs" that he identifies Himself with. He calls himself "
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mat 22:32

If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.



The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.

Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".

Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset. If polygamy equates to only being a pervert for sex, then the same thing should be said about the patriarchs who clearly had multiple wives.

[DrDavidT]

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.

postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.


If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.

Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?


Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset

Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.


Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".

Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.

That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.

[DrDavidT]

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.

postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.


If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.

Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?


Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset

Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.


Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".

Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.

That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.

[alanmolstad]

b...... Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.

well said!

[DrDavidT]

well said!

Thank you. If one wants to declare something to be good or bad fruit, they need to look at more than what they want to see. In Julie's case she stops at a limited view of marriage and condemns everyone else for their views even though she has not provided a credible standard that defines her idea of what is good or bad fruit. She quotes the Bible using those terms but she is NOT using God's definitions. She uses her own which is not accepted by anyone but herself.

That is not establishing anything credible, legitimate or even evidence for defining Smith as good fruit. She also ignores all his sins and not once do we see Smith repenting of those sins. Where are the accounts of his being born again and a new creature in Christ. There are none. All we have is that the angel moroni appeared to him as he was in his sinful state. Why would God appear or send an angel to an unrepentant person to do his holy work?

[DrDavidT]

double post

[BigJulie]

but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.
Or we do have the things of the Spirit of God and you just do not recognize it just as you do not recognize the prophecies in the Bible concerning the restoration. This is not unlike the Pharisees dismissing Christ and not recognizing what they had learned.


postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
What? Yes is does.


Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?

Well, I did not bring up David, but he did sin and he recognized it. Show me that Abraham recognized polygamy as a sin. I don't see it.




Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.Alan does. Read the beginning of this thread. You were the one who jumped in to defend him. I know about the research. I know Joseph Smith's history--both sides. And any researcher worth their salt can give both sides. Your dismissal of the other side is one of your major flaws.




Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world. No true. I don't live in a dream world believing that Joseph Smith was perfect--in fact, one of the first commandments Joseph Smith received was to repent---and it is in our scriptures. But you don't know that because all you have is one-sided propagandized "research"--if you want to call it that.

And anyone who wants to see what Joseph Smith taught about marriage can look at our church today.


That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.

Oh my--is your faith based on archaeological evidence? I am surprised you believe the Bible then as there is "archaeological" evidence that man is much older than the Bible states. I didn't know your beliefs are based on science--and here I thought you said the Bible is your authority and that God is somehow dead in this equation and no longer teaches his people nor has prophets. Now you tell me not even the Bible is your authority. Sheesh--can't keep up with your changing of the goal posts.

[DrDavidT]

talking to julie is a waste of time. she doesn't understand anything.

[BigJulie]

talking to julie is a waste of time. she doesn't understand anything.

Or I understand too much. Still won't take a stab at the questions I asked in Post #25? I know the typical response is to insult and run, but I had higher hopes for you :)

[DrDavidT]

Or I understand too much. Still won't take a stab at the questions I asked in Post #25? I know the typical response is to insult and run, but I had higher hopes for you :)

As I stated, those questions make no sense and are incoherent. Rewrite them and fix those problems and you will get an answer

[BigJulie]

As I stated, those questions make no sense and are incoherent. Rewrite them and fix those problems and you will get an answer

Here they are again---straight from the scriptures:

You can just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."

And

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?

[BigJulie]

As I stated, those questions make no sense and are incoherent. Rewrite them and fix those problems and you will get an answer

Here they are again---straight from the scriptures:

You can just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."

And

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?

[BigJulie]

bump for DrDavidT

[DrDavidT]

i won't cast pearls before swine but one thing is for sure, you do not know the context of the p***age and apply your own definition to the word 'gods'. Your misunderstanding of 'children of the most high' is understandable because you do not realize how those words are applied and that they may not reference those who are saved but are part of God's creation.

as for 'many things' that is up to Jesus to determine not me. it does not mean people will be made gods of their own planets. There is NO biblical teaching to support that idea and Smith included it in his heresy because he knew men loved power and control over others thus it was a tool of enticement not a word of truth.

[Christian]

but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.

postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.



Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?



Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.



Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.

That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.


She has no answers about any of this because SCRIPTURAL ignorance and selective readings are the signature trademark of the mormon religion.

She is the 'natural man' referred to in 1 Corinthians 2:14 as are all 'true blue mormons.' :(

[Christian]

'big' posted:


Originally Posted by DrDavidT
but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.


Or we do have the things of the Spirit of God and you just do not recognize it just as you do not recognize the prophecies in the Bible concerning the restoration. This is not unlike the Pharisees dismissing Christ and not recognizing what they had learned


Since there ARE NO SUCH 'prophecies in the Bible concerning any 'restoration of Christ's church, or its being 'lost,' or 'destroyed,' your fantasy is simply based on the lying words of the liar joe smith.


postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.

What? Yes is does.

IF THE BIBLE SAID ANY SUCH THING, you would be able to PRODUCE THE P***AGES THAT SAY SO. You cannot find ONE SINGLE P***AGE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE where EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN EVER 'baptized' EVEN ONE PERSON WHO HAD DIED. Your fantasy is simply based on the lying words of the liar joe smith.


Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?

Well, I did not bring up David, but he did sin and he recognized it. Show me that Abraham recognized polygamy as a sin. I don't see it.

YOUR CLAIM WAS that people who sinned couldn't be 'God's People.' DrDavid just showed you to be WRONG.


Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.

Alan does. Read the beginning of this thread. You were the one who jumped in to defend him. I know about the research. I know Joseph Smith's history--both sides. And any researcher worth their salt can give both sides. Your dismissal of the other side is one of your major flaws.


Let's see now. . .the HISTORICAL 'side' says that joe smith was a letch.
The WHITEWASHED MORMON 'side' (with it's VESTED INTEREST in making joe smith socially acceptable) says not.

Hmmmm. . .WHICH SIDE should we REASONABLY BELIEVE?

Lunch with wifey calls; I will head to her place of business to have lunch with her.

[BigJulie]

i won't cast pearls before swine but one thing is for sure, you do not know the context of the p***age and apply your own definition to the word 'gods'. Your misunderstanding of 'children of the most high' is understandable because you do not realize how those words are applied and that they may not reference those who are saved but are part of God's creation.

as for 'many things' that is up to Jesus to determine not me. it does not mean people will be made gods of their own planets. There is NO biblical teaching to support that idea and Smith included it in his heresy because he knew men loved power and control over others thus it was a tool of enticement not a word of truth.

In other words, you have no understanding--but only can continue to criticize my beliefs. Okay.

[DrDavidT]

In other words, you have no understanding--but only can continue to criticize my beliefs. Okay.

wrong. it means that you only use those scripture p***ages that are supposedly general enough to read your own Mormon ideas into then you feel justified in believing the deceptive words of the Mormon cult

[dberrie2000]

The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior.

Could you explain God's testimony of Abraham--who was polygamous?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[dberrie2000]

i won't cast pearls before swine but one thing is for sure, you do not know the context of the p***age and apply your own definition to the word 'gods'. Your misunderstanding of 'children of the most high' is understandable because you do not realize how those words are applied and that they may not reference those who are saved but are part of God's creation.

as for 'many things' that is up to Jesus to determine not me. it does not mean people will be made gods of their own planets. There is NO biblical teaching to support that idea and Smith included it in his heresy because he knew men loved power and control over others thus it was a tool of enticement not a word of truth.

Just a note here, David--most all the Early Church Fathers taught men may become gods:

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, "I have said, Ye are gods," and "God standeth in the congregation of the gods." But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 ...they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour. (ANF 2.539).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3 ...the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity...And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God", and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were of Him the prototype. ...Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surp***es all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity. (ANF 10.323).

Athanasius - De Incarnation 54 For He was made man that we might be made God. (NPNF, second series, 4.65).

Augustine - Sermon 81 But in order to lift them out of these iniquities, to redeem, to cure, to heal, to change the sons of men, he gave them the power and right to become sons of God. So what’s so surprising about this text? You were men, if you were sons of men; you were all liars, because every man is a liar. The grace of God came to you, it gave you the power and right to become sons of God. Listen to the voice of my Father saying, I said you are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High (Ps. 82:6). Because you are sons of men, you are liars, if you are not sons of the Most High, because every man is a liar. If you are sons of God, if redeemed by the grace of the Savior, if bought by his precious blood, if born again by water and the Spirit, if predestined to the heavenly inheritance, then of you are sons of God. Son you are already gods. (The Works of Saint Augustine - Part III - Sermons, vol. 3, p. 363.)

[BigJulie]

Just a note here, David--most all the Early Church Fathers taught men may become gods:

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, "I have said, Ye are gods," and "God standeth in the congregation of the gods." But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 ...they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour. (ANF 2.539).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3 ...the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity...And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God", and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were of Him the prototype. ...Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surp***es all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity. (ANF 10.323).

Athanasius - De Incarnation 54 For He was made man that we might be made God. (NPNF, second series, 4.65).

Augustine - Sermon 81 But in order to lift them out of these iniquities, to redeem, to cure, to heal, to change the sons of men, he gave them the power and right to become sons of God. So what’s so surprising about this text? You were men, if you were sons of men; you were all liars, because every man is a liar. The grace of God came to you, it gave you the power and right to become sons of God. Listen to the voice of my Father saying, I said you are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High (Ps. 82:6). Because you are sons of men, you are liars, if you are not sons of the Most High, because every man is a liar. If you are sons of God, if redeemed by the grace of the Savior, if bought by his precious blood, if born again by water and the Spirit, if predestined to the heavenly inheritance, then of you are sons of God. Son you are already gods. (The Works of Saint Augustine - Part III - Sermons, vol. 3, p. 363.)

Anyone who has been to the capital building in Washington DC would realize this as well. The painting --"The Apotheosis of Washington depicts George Washington sitting amongst the heavens in an exalted manner, or in literal terms, ascending and becoming a god (apotheosis)." I remember seeing it when I was there and enjoying the fact that it is in the very core of our history.

[DrDavidT]

Could you explain God's testimony of Abraham--who was polygamous?

Really? Chapter and verse please that states he married more than one woman at one time. I know that he married AFTER Sarah died, (Gen. 25) something that is okay. He never married Hagar So you need to prove he was polygamous.


ust a note here, David--most all the Early Church Fathers taught men may become gods:

Where is it written that the church fathers always taught the truth, were inspired by God and wrote scriptures? Sorry but an ancient writer's opinion is just the same as that of a modern writer's. Their being 'church fathers' does not bestow upon them any divine status and they can be in error.

Also some of your quotes do not teach what you claim.

[alanmolstad]

"Abraham Was NOT a Polygamist

Many people recall at once a few Old Testament instances of plural wives, and ***ume that God sanctioned polygamy. That ***umption is absolutely false! God has never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He FORBADE IT, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written STATUTE!

Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman.

Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous SIN. Although it renders it nonetheless a SIN, I think we can recognize extenuating circumstances.

Sarah was barren. For a wife in ancient times to go childless was felt to be a disgrace. It was Sarah, Abraham's own wife, who brought to Abraham her servant handmaid, asking him to produce a child for Sarah by this servant woman. We can imagine Hagar to have been attractive, and not necessarily lacking in voluptuous charms simply because she was a servant. That temptation, under these circumstances, at Sarah's instigation, might have been great. Certainly the very invitation coming from Sarah would have made it harder to resist.

Abraham was a strong man. But this temptation appears to have been stronger. All humans have sinned. Abraham was human. Abraham lied when he twice claimed Sarah was his sister, fearing for his own life.

Abraham was not without sin. But neither this adultery, nor the two lies, were sins of the nature that springs from a wrong at***ude of mind or heart. Abraham, in his heart, was always OBEDIENT to GOD. There was no spirit of hostility or rebellion. These sins were of the FLESH, under temptation -- not malicious or rebellious sins of the heart. But they were SINS! God forgave Abraham's sins of spiritual weakness, committed under heavy temptation.

Nevertheless, we all must REAP what we sow -- even though God forgives our sins upon repentance. God refused to approve this adulterous act of Abraham. He rejected the illegitimate son, Ishmael, from the birthright. This transgression produced jealousy between the women. It resulted in trouble, controversy, suffering.

How many realize that even the Arab-Jewish strife over Palestine, today, was brought on by this very THREE-CORNERED TRIANGLE, and the ensuing jealousy of the two women, Sarah and Hagar, over the one man, Abraham? The Jews are the children of Sarah, through Isaac, born later by a miracle. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael.

In Genesis 21:8-21 is the record of Hagar's departure from Sarah and Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away the concubine Hagar and her son, and Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Abraham had, after this, no more relations with Hagar, or his other concubine, Susanna, who is mentioned in the ancient Austrian Chronicle -- see Genesis 25:6 where you will read that Abraham's concubines' sons were sent away.

Sarah's death is recorded in Genesis 23:1-2. It was after that (Gen. 25), that Abraham married Keturah. This, of course, was a perfectly legal marriage. There was no polygamy -- no divorce.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are termed, in both Old and New Testaments, "the Fathers." Jesus Christ came to confirm the PROMISES made to "the Fathers." The unconditional promises God made to Abraham were repeated to both Isaac and Jacob."








http://giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html

[BigJulie]

"Abraham Was NOT a Polygamist

Many people recall at once a few Old Testament instances of plural wives, and ***ume that God sanctioned polygamy. That ***umption is absolutely false! God has never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He FORBADE IT, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written STATUTE!

Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman.

Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous SIN. Although it renders it nonetheless a SIN, I think we can recognize extenuating circumstances.

Sarah was barren. For a wife in ancient times to go childless was felt to be a disgrace. It was Sarah, Abraham's own wife, who brought to Abraham her servant handmaid, asking him to produce a child for Sarah by this servant woman. We can imagine Hagar to have been attractive, and not necessarily lacking in voluptuous charms simply because she was a servant. That temptation, under these circumstances, at Sarah's instigation, might have been great. Certainly the very invitation coming from Sarah would have made it harder to resist.

Abraham was a strong man. But this temptation appears to have been stronger. All humans have sinned. Abraham was human. Abraham lied when he twice claimed Sarah was his sister, fearing for his own life.

Abraham was not without sin. But neither this adultery, nor the two lies, were sins of the nature that springs from a wrong at***ude of mind or heart. Abraham, in his heart, was always OBEDIENT to GOD. There was no spirit of hostility or rebellion. These sins were of the FLESH, under temptation -- not malicious or rebellious sins of the heart. But they were SINS! God forgave Abraham's sins of spiritual weakness, committed under heavy temptation.

Nevertheless, we all must REAP what we sow -- even though God forgives our sins upon repentance. God refused to approve this adulterous act of Abraham. He rejected the illegitimate son, Ishmael, from the birthright. This transgression produced jealousy between the women. It resulted in trouble, controversy, suffering.

How many realize that even the Arab-Jewish strife over Palestine, today, was brought on by this very THREE-CORNERED TRIANGLE, and the ensuing jealousy of the two women, Sarah and Hagar, over the one man, Abraham? The Jews are the children of Sarah, through Isaac, born later by a miracle. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael.

In Genesis 21:8-21 is the record of Hagar's departure from Sarah and Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away the concubine Hagar and her son, and Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Abraham had, after this, no more relations with Hagar, or his other concubine, Susanna, who is mentioned in the ancient Austrian Chronicle -- see Genesis 25:6 where you will read that Abraham's concubines' sons were sent away.

Sarah's death is recorded in Genesis 23:1-2. It was after that (Gen. 25), that Abraham married Keturah. This, of course, was a perfectly legal marriage. There was no polygamy -- no divorce.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are termed, in both Old and New Testaments, "the Fathers." Jesus Christ came to confirm the PROMISES made to "the Fathers." The unconditional promises God made to Abraham were repeated to both Isaac and Jacob."








http://giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html

Please provide proof that God ever called Abraham's relationship with Hagar a sin? Do you ever see him reprimanded for it? Are you aware that Abraham continued his relationship with the sons of Ishmael?

We then have Jacob (or Israel) which you never addressed in which the 12 tribes of Israel (some of which are from the concubines) are part of the 12 tribes--all now considered "Israelites." Looking just a few chapters ahead, you would find the conclusions you have made here must be wrong based on what happened only two generations later and how God dealt with the children of both the wives and the concubines.

[DrDavidT]

you do not understand anything as you try to use the bible to justify following your own sinful lusts.

you are also arguing from silence which means you have no argument. You do not have any verse where God says it is okay for them to marry multiple wives. you are also missing part of the story where God tells them to follow his commandments, which apply to all people, and where God sets up a sacrifice to receive forgiveness for their sins. how do you know that they did not ask forgiveness for their sins? Why should forgiveness mean that someone makes one of their wives an adulteress or des***ute?

you really have no clue on what scripture teaches.

[BigJulie]

you do not understand anything as you try to use the bible to justify following your own sinful lusts.

you are also arguing from silence which means you have no argument. You do not have any verse where God says it is okay for them to marry multiple wives. you are also missing part of the story where God tells them to follow his commandments, which apply to all people, and where God sets up a sacrifice to receive forgiveness for their sins. how do you know that they did not ask forgiveness for their sins? Why should forgiveness mean that someone makes one of their wives an adulteress or des***ute?

you really have no clue on what scripture teaches.

Are you talking to Alan? He seems to see the Bible from the "sinful lust" perspective.

So, let's take a look at what you believe:

1. If the Bible does not have on record of God making a commandment, it must not be commanded.
2. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice to receive a forgiveness of sins.
3. Silence does not make a valid point.

But let's step back a few verses in the Bible:

1. Proof against your belief that "Silence means you have no argument.

Gen 4 And in process of time it came to p***, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

So---based on your conclusion--please show me WHERE in the proceeding versus was Cain and Able told to make offerings to the Lord?

Hence, if they were not commanded, they must have been sinning--but clearly, they were not.

2. Next, why do you believe it was the sacrifice that they offered that allowed them to receive a forgiveness of their sins?

3. How can you ***ert that you cannot make an argument of silence and then go on to argue (from silence) that MAYBE they asked for forgiveness? Clearly, the silence on their lack of asking for forgiveness is more damaging to your belief than the lack of a written word directing them to what they did DO. If this act was so hideous that they needed to make a sacrifice for it, why was it repeated by Jacob? And not only repeated, but the sons of his multiple wives and concubines were recognized by the Lord as HIS people. My argument looks at actions but no words, your argument relies on both silence in words AND in actions.

It is clear why you must end your post with a direct insult to me because your argument of silence alone does more to destroy your own beliefs than mine.

[DrDavidT]

it must be easy to be a mormon. they do not have to tell the truth, they dodge any difficult point they do not want to answer, they make claims without presenting evidence to support those claims, distract from the point and so on.

they also think they know what you believe, that is arrogance

[Phoenix]

it must be easy to be a mormon. they do not have to tell the truth, they dodge any difficult point they do not want to answer, they make claims without presenting evidence to support those claims, distract from the point and so on.

they also think they know what you believe, that is arrogance

I will just let my sigline do the talking

[BigJulie]

it must be easy to be a mormon. they do not have to tell the truth, they dodge any difficult point they do not want to answer, they make claims without presenting evidence to support those claims, distract from the point and so on.

they also think they know what you believe, that is arrogance

Oh, I suppose that my presenting Genesis 4 is not evidence?

I suppose that presenting your own argument as proof the fallacy of your argument against my argument is not evidence?

I suppose that you think that only the portion the Bible you want to discuss is evidence and the portion of the Bible I use to refute it is not?

And once again--you must begin and end with a put down, once again showing the weakness of your own argument. *sigh*

[BigJulie]

I will just let my sigline do the talking

From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

"If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

I completely agree.

[DrDavidT]

I will just let my sigline do the talking

yet i haven't done that. I told the truth.

[BigJulie]

yet i haven't done that. I told the truth.

Proof that you have "insulted, belittled or treats a group of individual with contempt"


Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
it must be easy to be a mormon. they do not have to tell the truth




Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT you really have no clue on what scripture teaches.

And these are just on this page. Don't sweat it though. What it tells me is that you really have no argument--just as the sigline indicates.

[DrDavidT]

when you live in a deluded world anything is twisted and distorted to say something different than was intended..

[BigJulie]

when you live in a deluded world anything is twisted and distorted to say something different than was intended..

The point is, you try to denounce my religion by:

1. Stating that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy wickedly and then either claiming Abraham was wicked in his own polygamy (Alan's argument) which clearly contradicts the idea then that Joseph Smith cannot be a prophet by doing such, or by stating that there is no such commandment in the Bible and therefore it must not be, yet we can clearly show the offerings made by Cain and Abel when no such commandment is noted in the Bible, or by stating that Abraham sacrificed to repent which shows the hypocrisy of your making an argument from silence while stating we cannot.

2. Stating that we do not believe in the God of the Bible, and when we clearly make scriptural reference after scriptural reference that backs our belief, then we are either told we take the Bible too literally or that while you cannot explain the scriptural references, regardless we are wrong.

3. Stating that unless we have some type of archaeological evidence, that clearly we must be wrong-and yet when we produce it, you negate it based on your own biased viewpoint, and yet miss the hypocrisy that when asked to provide your own evidence, you also provide a believers viewpoint and ignore the detractors.

And when the above is pointed out to you, your only argument is one to put down the poster. (But I guess it is me who lives in the deluded world who twists and distorts---clearly stereotyping someone as "easy to be Mormon, [as] they do not have to tell the truth"--no...why would I see that as an insult--clearly I must be deluded.)

[DrDavidT]

You have no complaint you are wrong.


Stating that we do not believe in the God of the Bible, and when we clearly make scriptural reference after scriptural reference that backs our belief,

unbelievers and atheists do this as well, that act does not make them right or even Christian.


Stating that unless we have some type of archaeological evidence, that clearly we must be wrong-and yet when we produce it, you negate it based on your own biased viewpoint, and yet miss the hypocrisy that when asked to provide your own evidence, you also provide a believers viewpoint and ignore the detractors.

as i said, we have mss., ancient cities and civilizations, we have extra-biblical confirmation. YOU have NOTHING to support one claim smith made. All you have is blind faith in the words of a known con man.

That is not an intelligent act to do

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=DrDavidT;169580]You have no complaint you are wrong.



unbelievers and atheists do this as well, that act does not make them right or even Christian. Oh, and I thought atheists and unbelievers attack Christians with the Bible--much as you are doing with Mormons. I agree though--attackers are not Christian--even if they use the Bible to justify themselves.




as i said, we have mss., ancient cities and civilizations, we have extra-biblical confirmation. YOU have NOTHING to support one claim smith made. All you have is blind faith in the words of a known con man. Oh, okay---so you have a city--so that makes your evidence worthwhile even though you cannot prove what happened there and we have plates and a stone--which also cannot prove anything. But somehow your evidence counts and ours does not? Do you see the hypocrisy?

Do you notice that you do not even touch on the scriptures or my noting that your scriptural arguments do not hold? This is the one place that those who argue against the revelations given to Joseph Smith do NOT want to go.

If Abraham, being a polygamist, was sinful--both you and Alan have made this argument that it was--then you cannot use this sin as keeping a man from being chosen by God to be a leader of his people. In either case, Abraham was condoned by God or he was not--in either case, you cannot use the Bible to back your argument.

You also have no understanding of "and all are children of the Most High" and chose instead to open your eyes to what it possibly means, instead choose to ignore it and continue to criticize us.

You have no understanding of the"many things" God's faithful will be "rulers' over, however instead of opening your eyes to the possibility of what it means to be a "ruler" in the next life, you choose to ignore it and criticize us.

[dberrie2000]

All you have is blind faith ....

Could you explain for us why revelation through the Spirit of Truth is nothing?

John 16:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Where do we find anything about "ancient cities and civilizations," there?

What I find as blind faith is believing in a theology that preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[DrDavidT]

Oh, okay---so you have a city--so that makes your evidence worthwhile even though you cannot prove what happened there and we have plates and a stone--which also cannot prove anything. But somehow your evidence counts and ours does not? Do you see the hypocrisy?


With jericho and Hazor and a few other cities we can prove what took place there.


Do you notice that you do not even touch on the scriptures or my noting that your scriptural arguments do not hold? This is the one place that those who argue against the revelations given to Joseph Smith do NOT want to go.

Not even close to being true.


If Abraham, being a polygamist, was sinful--both you and Alan have made this argument that it was

We also pointed out that Abraham was NOT a polygamist and you haven't shown where he was.


You also have no understanding of "and all are children of the Most High" and chose instead to open your eyes to what it possibly means, instead choose to ignore it and continue to criticize us.

I know what both mean but I do not cast pearls before swine.

[DrDavidT]

Could you explain for us why revelation through the Spirit of Truth is nothing?

Bring up Smith's revelations and see that they are nothing. Don't change the subject and go to the Bible when it suits your purposes.

Then please prove Smith had honest and pure and spiritual motives. The historical record says otherwise.

[dberrie2000]

We also pointed out that Abraham was NOT a polygamist and you haven't shown where he was.

Genesis 16:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.


Full Definition of polygamy--Merriam Webster

1 : marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time


So, David--you have a dilemma to face. If you do not believe Abraham was polygamous--then you are still left with adultery:


Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[dberrie2000]

Could you explain for us why revelation through the Spirit of Truth is nothing?

John 16:13---King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Where do we find anything about "ancient cities and civilizations," there?

What I find as blind faith is believing in a theology that preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Don't change the subject and go to the Bible when it suits your purposes.

The Bible always suits my purposes.

[alanmolstad]

So, David--you have a dilemma to face. If you do not believe Abraham was polygamous--then you are still left with adultery:


[]


Abraham was very much guilty of adultery....as clearly was King David.....






and they are not the only people too that are talked about in the Bible yet had sins of the flesh such as this in their past.

And Jesus talked about this sin so that we understand how serious God took this sin - "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So even just the thought of cheating with another girl is a sin.


So lets just admit the fact that Abraham was guilty of adultery.
I dont think he actually 'married" the other woman...I dont remember him calling her his "wife"
But he did have sex with the girl and so he is clearly guilty of that sin and its ramifications.

so according to a verse in the Bible, Abraham deserved ****ation for adultery.







But to this all we need to do is turn to the Bible for our salvation -1 Corinthians 6:9




Here at 1 Corinthians 6:9 we find the offer of salvation that is ours in Christ....even to guys like King David who killed to try to get away with sleeping with a wife of a married man can find forgiveness

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.






So the conclusion is this....
Guys who are clearly guilty of adultery such as King David and Abraham clearly deserve to be cast into the fires of Hell

....anyone who disagrees needs to go read the text again.
But for our salvation we have the cross...


We all need the cross to live or none would live



Or none would live...no not one.

[alanmolstad]

This also points out the problem with Joe Smith, who invented and worshiped his own self-made image of the Lord.

Thus, Joe's Christ cant save squat.

Thus, Joe's sins remain forgiven ....and he burns today in hell.....

[dberrie2000]

Abraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[alanmolstad]

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

The fact is, the whole family of Abraham and his sons and sons of son had a long history of sins and of haveing trouble telling the real truth...

They are not special to us because they lived sin-free lives....LOL



The thing that makes them special and worth looking to for guidance is that they had hearts the were filled with faith.
Not always doing what they should to be sure....
But as we see in the writings of King David (who was clearly guilty of adultery and murder) we see that while the flesh did cause his life harm,yet we read of his great love and faith that would turn to God over and over...



to say Abraham was not totally guilty of adultery is to try to cover-up his sins.....

To say David was not guilty of adultery and murder is to try to also cover-up his sins.


But that does them no help!!!!!!!





the honest thing to understand about all these guys is that they all had committed the sin of adultery, but because of their Lord's mercy, they were not lost.


They were guilty

They clearly deserved ****ation

But the Lord also forgives.






if you have the right lord, that is.....(Thats where old Joe Smith is in trouble , see above)

[alanmolstad]

the thing I get from the way the Mormon believers will race to try to put a bitter spin on the actions of their founder Smith is a lot like the people who tried to put a better spin on the actions of President Clinton (remember him?)

The people that tried to defend Clinton would dig up the dirt on other past presidents in an attempt to make Clinton's cheating not look so bad in comparison.

Its the same way now with the people that try to defend the actions of Smith.

They race to find people in the Bible that also had married other women (or in the case of Abraham, just had sex with) in an effort to make the actions of Smith not look so bad.


I remember once a Mormon said that "An older man being married to a young 14 year old girl was common at that time"....

My response to that attempt to put a better 'spin"on what is clearly the actions of a sexual predator is to then ask in return, "Joe Smith also slept with the wives of other men, is that also common at that time?, and excusable in the Bible?"

[dberrie2000]

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

According to you:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again---

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[dberrie2000]

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

According to you:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again---

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[alanmolstad]

question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

[dberrie2000]

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?


question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

Alan--perhaps you could answer that--you are the one who accuses Abraham of adultery:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Phoenix]

Thus, Joe's sins remain forgiven ....and he burns today in hell.....

Yikes. You have an interesting soteriology

[alanmolstad]

Alan--perhaps you could answer that--you are the one who accuses Abraham of adultery:



....You know what?...Im actually not sure????

I mean I know a lot of Mormons attempt to hide the adultery of their founder Joe Smith by pointing to sex life of Abraham, but Im not sure is Abraham was as guilty of sleeping with the wives of his followers as old horny-Joe was?

I will have to ask around a bit to see if anyone can help me answer this question....

and yes, to be consistent, if anyone does find proof that Abraham slept with the wives of other men, then I say he should have gotten shot as well....


But then again, there were no guns back then you say?...well...fine, take the cow de-horner to him.... :)
.

[alanmolstad]

Yikes. You have an interesting soteriology
Im going to have to deduct -50 bonus points from your account, for using a word I have to GOOGLE.... :)

[alanmolstad]

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

[

adultery is not the "Unforgivable" sin ....


Abraham is covered and has an escape as we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9



"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"
To be forgiven is to be as if you never sinned in the first place....

So when God says you are clean...its as if in His eyes you were never dirty in the first place...

But....

Abraham was a sinner,,,he sinned...he simply was not really good at a few things and it came back later to be a real problem for him and his Jewish children....(The whole Arab/Jew issue still is something that is always just short of destroying the world).
So we can see that Abraham was forgive by God , and his sins were not held against him....

Yet....


yet the earthly effects of his sin of adultery do still remain as something that even to day, 1000s or years later we are still dealing with and are behind things like the 911 attack etc, etc, etc,,,....

[alanmolstad]

so what Im saying is this...

Abraham was totally guilty of adultery...

(Look, we all know thats just the facts...We might nnot like it but thts just the way it is...)



I dont give a **** that his wife came up with the idea...that dont cut squat with me.

But that adultery is not the unforgivable sin...
Again I dont give a rip what this or that verse says as to this or that being "un forgiven" in your eyes...

,,
yes, people that "maintain" adultery are lost...
we get that..

People that do all sorts of sins that never repent are lost,,,,thats just the way it is...


But that also is not the end of the story correct?....

For as sin is pointed out, it is not pointed out without an way to find life out ofit...

..
The Faith that i have is that you can be guilty of all kinds of sins and yet find forgiveness....

Thus, Abraham can find forgiveness just as Clinton can...and thats lucky too,,,because many in the church faithful are also guilty of this same sin that King David and Abraham were also guilty of....

sin abounds it is true, but where sin abounds, Grace also abounds...

[alanmolstad]

question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

still no answers to this simple question?....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAgain--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


adultery is not the "Unforgivable" sin ....

I agree--please show us where Abraham repented.


Abraham is covered and has an escape as we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if one believes Abraham was an adulterer--then that verse only serves to further convict Abraham.

In your view Abraham was an adulterer--how is Abraham exonerated from the condemnation those scriptures show against an adulterer?

If repentance--then please show us where Abraham repented of being an adulterer.

[dberrie2000]

You know what?...Im actually not sure????

I mean I know a lot of Mormons attempt to hide the adultery of their founder Joe Smith by pointing to sex life of Abraham, but Im not sure is Abraham was as guilty of sleeping with the wives of his followers as old horny-Joe was?

Alan--that won't solve your problem, in fact--it won't even touch it.

You accuse Abraham of adultery--regardless of how you come to that conclusion.

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[DrDavidT]

still no answers to this simple question?....

double post

[DrDavidT]

still no answers to this simple question?....

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife. Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did. BUT that is not the point of the Bible. We learn that God uses men to do great things even though they sin from time to time.

Abraham walked with God Smith did not. Abraham talked with God directly Smith did not/ Abraham was not fooled by demons in disguise as angels of light Smith was.

[dberrie2000]

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife.

Abraham had sex with numerous women--both wives and concubines:

Genesis 25:6-8---King James Version (KJV)
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

And I see no repentance there--or anywhere in the scriptures.

So--a couple of points:

How do you explain God's testimony?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How could one that you describe as an adulterer be described as one that kept God's commandments? Wasn't one of the commandments-- thou shalt not commit adultery?

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did.

Abraham practiced polygamy--period.

[dberrie2000]

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife.

Abraham had sex with numerous women--both wives and concubines:

Genesis 25:6-8---King James Version (KJV)
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

And I see no repentance there--or anywhere in the scriptures.

So--a couple of points:

How do you explain God's testimony?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How could one that you describe as an adulterer be described as one that kept God's commandments? Wasn't one of the commandments-- thou shalt not commit adultery?

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did.

Abraham practiced polygamy--period.

[alanmolstad]

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

[/B]

I already answered this...

Look, turning to the sex life of Abraham to hide the sex life on Joe behind is just not going to work...

[alanmolstad]

Clearly Abraham was guilty of adultery....

Im not really sure if Abraham was also guilty of polygamy?, as to my mind to be guilty of polygamy you actually have to have married the girl...not just sleeping around on your wife with her.


I believe Abraham only had the one wife....I dont remember readong that he got officially married to some other girl while married to his one wife.

Now there are other men in the Bible that are totally guilty of polygamy, as they did actually offically "nmarry" a 2nd girl while married already to another girl.

But as far as I know, Abraham was not guilty of that sin.

[alanmolstad]

Clearly Abraham was guilty of adultery....

Im not really sure if Abraham was also guilty of polygamy?, as to my mind to be guilty of polygamy you actually have to have married the girl...not just sleeping around on your wife with her.

To my way of understanding the term, "polygamy" means to be really married to more than one girl at the same time....
That is the way i define the term.

I believe Abraham only had the one wife....
I dont remember reading that he got officially married to some other girl while married to his one wife.

Now there are other men in the Bible that are totally guilty of polygamy, as they did actually officially "marry" a 2nd girl while married already to another girl.

But as far as I know, Abraham was not guilty of that sin.






Another difference I see is that I have yet to read that Abraham slept with the wife of one of his followers?

I do not believe that Abraham ever offered $5 bucks to a girl to get her to sleep with him?..

[alanmolstad]

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

[

why do you run away from the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11 ?




Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


You tend to try to focus only on the warning that paul gives at the start where he says that people that are guilty of the sin of Adultery do not enter into the Kingdom....
But you stop short there in your study of Paul's teaching on this and fail to go on to the next part where Paul tells us that we are not forever trapped in our sins...

The moment Paul says - "For that is what some of you were" Paul shows us that we are not without hope of salvation...

Many in the church are guilty of adultery so what shall wesay to such people?

,shall we say only to them, "Sorry, if you are truly guilty of adultery Paul says you are beyond hope"???




If your defense of the sleeping around that Joe Smith did is to say it was not a sin because if it was Adultery then Abraham would be just as guilty, (and then you keep referring to the words of Paul that the people guilty of Adultery are lost)...then in effect what you are really telling the people that are totally guilty of the sin of adultery " You are lost forever, we cant help you"




I think the better idea is the following-

Abraham is totally guilty of adultery.
But...
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin.


and....

Paul does warn us that people that are guilty of Adultery will not enter into the Kingdom.
But...
Paul also teaches us that even if you are guilty of adultery you can be washed clean and enter into the kingdom.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?


I already answered this...

Cite, please. You haven't even touched it yet--your retort was to run kick Joseph Smith--which has nothing to do with Abraham's polygamy.


Look, turning to the sex life of Abraham to hide the sex life on Joe behind is just not going to work...

I don't believe I have mentioned the name of Joseph Smith--so, let's leave Joseph Smith out of this.

Your accusation is had here:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Abraham was very much guilty of adultery....

My question was this--how does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if he were an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If Abraham were an adulterer--why did God bear this testimony concerning Abraham?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

why do you run away from the words of Paul?

[alanmolstad]

are you saying that the people that are guilty of adultery, are forever lost?...that they have no hope given them by Paul....??

[dberrie2000]

why do you run away from the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11 ?

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


You tend to try to focus only on the warning that paul gives at the start where he says that people that are guilty of the sin of Adultery do not enter into the Kingdom....
But you stop short there in your study of Paul's teaching on this and fail to go on to the next part where Paul tells us that we are not forever trapped in our sins...

But that is a reference to those who have repented of their sins.

Where do we find Abraham repenting of adultery?

Genesis 25---King James Version (KJV)

1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.

8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[dberrie2000]

are you saying that the people that are guilty of adultery, are forever lost?...that they have no hope given them by Paul....??

The scriptures teach one can repent and be forgiven--where do we find Abraham repenting of adultery?

Alan--you are the one who accuses Abraham of adultery--not me.

[alanmolstad]

Paul tells us that all the people that have committed the many sins he lists...(and its a big list and Im sure that Paul could have gone on and on and listed so many things that each of us can find our own slot on his list), and teaches us that we can be free of that stain in our future "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



In other words.,..God treats us as if we never sinned!

Its as if we never committed the sin,,,any sin...
It's all done away with...no repercussion at all with our past in the future kingdom.

we are washed and made clean.....

[alanmolstad]

Abraham had "FAITH"...and it was counted as righteousness....

Its as if Abraham never sinned.....not ever left the will of God....pure....

it's the same with me too....

Its as if I never sinned even one time.




all by God's grace though FAITH!

[alanmolstad]

that is why Abraham lives yet is clearly guilty of adultery...

In the same manner, I too live yet I am truly guilty of many sins....


We live because we have faith.....

[alanmolstad]

Abraham and I live, by faith.

a faith not in ourselves...

Not a faith in our many good works..

But we live because of the faith we have in a God who forgives and washed away all our sins...


God looks at us and sees us as pure and free of any stain of sin...

[dberrie2000]

that is why Abraham lives yet is clearly guilty of adultery...

In the same manner, I too live yet I am truly guilty of many sins....

We live because we have faith.....

Please do show us where the forgiveness of sins was given to anyone who refused to repent.

Again:

Where do we find Abraham repenting of adultery?

Genesis 25---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[alanmolstad]

Where do you read he refused to repent?....

[alanmolstad]

Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....

I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.

Im not saved because of my works....

Im not saved because I live a sinless life.

Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...


Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.


we live in faith....

[alanmolstad]

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as Righteousness....I also believe God and it is credited to me as righteousness too...


for it is by faith that we both live

[dberrie2000]

Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....

I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.

Im not saved because of my works....

Im not saved because I live a sinless life.

Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...

Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.

we live in faith....

That's all well and fine, Alan--but your accusation of Abraham being an adulterer presents some problems:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Unless, of course--you can show where Abraham repented of adultery.

And while you are at it--please inform us how God pronounced this upon Abraham--and contrast that with the fact you accuse him as being an adulterer:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[dberrie2000]

Abraham was saved,not because of anything except by grace though his faith....

I am saved .not by anything except by grace though faith.

Im not saved because of my works....

Im not saved because I live a sinless life.

Im not saved because after i became a christian I never sinned again...

Im saved and kept safe only though the blood of the cross and God's grace though faith....not by works...not by being able to lead a sin-free life, not by always being "so sorry" for my past sins.

we live in faith....

That's all well and fine, Alan--but your accusation of Abraham being an adulterer presents some problems:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Unless, of course--you can show where Abraham repented of adultery.

And while you are at it--please inform us how God pronounced this upon Abraham--and contrast that with the fact you accuse him as being an adulterer:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[dberrie2000]

Paul tells us that all the people that have committed the many sins he lists...(and its a big list and Im sure that Paul could have gone on and on and listed so many things that each of us can find our own slot on his list), and teaches us that we can be free of that stain in our future "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.



In other words.,..God treats us as if we never sinned!

Its as if we never committed the sin,,,any sin...
It's all done away with...no repercussion at all with our past in the future kingdom.

we are washed and made clean.....

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[alanmolstad]

why do you run away from the words of Paul?

Paul's words give people that are guilty of adultery (such as Abraham) hope of entering the kingdom!

[dberrie2000]

why do you run away from the words of Paul?

Paul's words give people that are guilty of adultery (such as Abraham) hope of entering the kingdom!

Alan--as we have already discussed--the only ones who have hope are those who repent of such things.

Could you give us any scripture where Abraham repented of what you accuse him of--IE--adultery?

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[alanmolstad]

Alan--as we have already discussed--the only ones who have hope are those who repent of such things.

Could you give us any scripture where Abraham repented of what you accuse him of--IE--adultery?

.....

again, we are saved by what?....being sorry?
You think we are saved because we are sorry?


LOL....NO!




Listen, we are saved ONLY because of the following.

We are saved by grace THOUGH what_____?.......

grace though what____?





We are saved by grace though.......faith.

Not by works,
not by being sorry,,,
not by our actions...
We are saved only by grace though faith...


and the Bible says Abraham was righteous because of his what?......because of his what?....


Because he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness !

Its the same for me too...

Im not saved because I went under some water....
Im not saved because i joined the correct church

Im not saved because of any of my works...

Im not saved because I got caught in sin and now feel guilty

Im not saved because I feel sorry for my sins....

Im only saved because for the same reason Abraham was saved, and King david, and anyone in the christian church is saved...we all are saved by God's grace working though faith....and faith in His forgiveness.


As for Abraham's sins?...I trust God with the things such as that....
There is a lot of things not written in the Bible...just because its not written we cant then jump to the conclusion that it never happened...

EXAMPLE:
The Bible never says Jesus went to the bathroom, so are we to believe he never did, so we dont have to too?


(I rest my case.... :) )

[alanmolstad]

Abraham Was NOT a Polygamist

Many people recall at once a few Old Testament instances of plural wives, and ***ume that God sanctioned polygamy. That ***umption is absolutely false! God has never approved, nor made lawful, more than one living wife for any man. Quite the contrary, He FORBADE IT, even to the kings of Israel, and that by written STATUTE!

Abraham was not a polygamist. While Sarah, his wife, lived, he never married any other woman.

Abraham had an illegitimate son by Hagar. But that was an adulterous SIN. Although it renders it nonetheless a SIN, I think we can recognize extenuating circumstances.

Sarah was barren. For a wife in ancient times to go childless was felt to be a disgrace. It was Sarah, Abraham's own wife, who brought to Abraham her servant handmaid, asking him to produce a child for Sarah by this servant woman. We can imagine Hagar to have been attractive, and not necessarily lacking in voluptuous charms simply because she was a servant. That temptation, under these circumstances, at Sarah's instigation, might have been great. Certainly the very invitation coming from Sarah would have made it harder to resist.

Abraham was a strong man. But this temptation appears to have been stronger. All humans have sinned. Abraham was human. Abraham lied when he twice claimed Sarah was his sister, fearing for his own life.

Abraham was not without sin. But neither this adultery, nor the two lies, were sins of the nature that springs from a wrong at***ude of mind or heart. Abraham, in his heart, was always OBEDIENT to GOD. There was no spirit of hostility or rebellion. These sins were of the FLESH, under temptation -- not malicious or rebellious sins of the heart. But they were SINS! God forgave Abraham's sins of spiritual weakness, committed under heavy temptation.

Nevertheless, we all must REAP what we sow -- even though God forgives our sins upon repentance. God refused to approve this adulterous act of Abraham. He rejected the illegitimate son, Ishmael, from the birthright. This transgression produced jealousy between the women. It resulted in trouble, controversy, suffering.

How many realize that even the Arab-Jewish strife over Palestine, today, was brought on by this very THREE-CORNERED TRIANGLE, and the ensuing jealousy of the two women, Sarah and Hagar, over the one man, Abraham? The Jews are the children of Sarah, through Isaac, born later by a miracle. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael.

In Genesis 21:8-21 is the record of Hagar's departure from Sarah and Abraham. God ordered Abraham to send away the concubine Hagar and her son, and Abraham obeyed. This was at the time Isaac was weaned. Abraham had, after this, no more relations with Hagar, or his other concubine, Susanna, who is mentioned in the ancient Austrian Chronicle -- see Genesis 25:6 where you will read that Abraham's concubines' sons were sent away.

Sarah's death is recorded in Genesis 23:1-2. It was after that (Gen. 25), that Abraham married Keturah. This, of course, was a perfectly legal marriage. There was no polygamy -- no divorce.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are termed, in both Old and New Testaments, "the Fathers." Jesus Christ came to confirm the PROMISES made to "the Fathers." The unconditional promises God made to Abraham were repeated to both Isaac and Jacob.


http://giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html

[dberrie2000]

Abraham Was NOT a Polygamist

You might want to relay that to the Biblical OT writers:

Genesis 16:1-3---King James Version (KJV)
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Where I come from--a man with more than one living wife--is a polygamist.


Simple Definition of polygamy--Merriam Webster

: the state or practice of being married to more than one person at the same time

[dberrie2000]

again, we are saved by what?....being sorry?
You think we are saved because we are sorry?

LOL....NO!

Listen, we are saved ONLY because of the following.

We are saved by grace THOUGH what_____?.......

grace though what____?

We are saved by grace though.......faith.

So--were they saved before the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

When you find the term "faith"--is that a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[DrDavidT]

dberrie2000-- where does it say in the Bible that you are allowed to have affairs, multiple wives and concubines? Just because certain biblical figures did does not mean God's people are granted permission to do the same, especially when the Bible explicit;y forbids such practice. Then because the bible is silent on Abraham's and God's dealing of the issue does not mean it did not take place.

[DrDavidT]

And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

It is these words I want to draw people's attention to. Notice it does not say that he hearkened to the voice of God. No he listened to his wife over God which many men do all the time So God did not grant approval for this cultural move but used it for his will in the long run.

[dberrie2000]

It is these words I want to draw people's attention to. Notice it does not say that he hearkened to the voice of God.

Yes, the Biblical record testifies Abraham obeyed the voice of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

David--I'm not the one who accuses Abraham of adultery--you and Alan seem to follow that line.

So--how did Abraham escape Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[DrDavidT]

You seem to forget that God said that when people repent he remembers their sins no more. I am sure that promise held true for Abraham as well.

[dberrie2000]

You seem to forget that God said that when people repent he remembers their sins no more. I am sure that promise held true for Abraham as well.

I'm not the one who claims Abraham had anything to repent of, as adultery--that seems to be your and Alan's accusation.

So--where do we find Abraham's repentance?

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[dberrie2000]

Yes, the Biblical record testifies Abraham obeyed the voice of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

David--I'm not the one who accuses Abraham of adultery--you and Alan seem to follow that line.

So--how did Abraham escape Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


You seem to forget that God said that when people repent he remembers their sins no more. I am sure that promise held true for Abraham as well.

That's fine, David. Now, all we need is for you to show us where Abraham repented:

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[dberrie2000]

double post

[dberrie2000]

double post

[dberrie2000]

You seem to forget that God said that when people repent he remembers their sins no more. I am sure that promise held true for Abraham as well.

Again--where do we find the repentance of Abraham for adultery?(which you accuse him of)

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

[Berean]

Again--where do we find the repentance of Abraham for adultery?(which you accuse him of)

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Nonsense

It's one thing to say that God "allowed" polygamy and another thing to say that he sanctioned it. If polygamy is the norm, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His "bride," the body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--where do we find the repentance of Abraham for adultery?(which you accuse him of)

Genesis 25:1-8---King James Version (KJV)
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were ***hurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.


Nonsense

It's one thing to say that God "allowed" polygamy and another thing to say that he sanctioned it. If polygamy is the norm, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His "bride," the body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.

If God did not approve of Abraham's polygamy--then Abraham was an adulterer.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.